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+--- Thread: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict (/showthread.php?tid=122070)
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Mímir - 10-27-2014
(10-27-2014, 11:42 AM)Saronsen Wrote:(10-27-2014, 11:30 AM)Laura C. Wrote: By the way, if we will make poll "should Rheinland get control over Texas because it deserves to conquer it" and option yes will win, will you change it according to poll too because "players want change" to quote your words?
Except Rheinland is literally in no position to suddenly conquer Texas. There's one thing if it's a poll of things that're possible. It's another to be retarded and go YEAH WELL DESPITE WHAT HAPPENED, RHEINLAND WINS ANYWAY.
The Devs dictated Rheinland retreated and blew up their two Hamburg gates, and Texas has little to no threat of actually being conquered because of it.
Christ, I thought Liberty was full of zealots.
It's not really that. Most people I know fight on both sides and don't really give 2 cents if Liberty or Rheinland is stronger on paper.
It's easy to compensate for the story so far ("Liberty so stronk, Rheinland must lose"), by developing it. Liberty's economy is larger than that of Rheinland, but more sensitive to changes in the economic trend. Liberty dominates the financial markets, produces luxury items and high-tech equipment, and these are all areas that are extremely volatile - unlike refinement of natural resources.
A conflict like the Gallic-Bretonian one would hit Liberty really, really hard as one of their main export markets grind to a halt. That could be accounted for in the story, and make the Rheinland-Liberty conflict just as likely to carry on or even make Liberty throw in the towel.
Real-life shows us over and over again that even if everything is pointing towards a victory, the opposite can also happen. Look at the conflicts Europe and USA have been involved in over the last decade, and how these conflicts were already won on paper before the first shot was fired. Then look at what actually ended up happening. These things don't work like a clockwork or a RTS game where you can just stack all your units for a guaranteed win.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Echo 7-7 - 10-27-2014
(10-27-2014, 11:25 AM)Mímir Wrote: So you are using the poll as a means to show you what the community wants?
That is literally the purpose of the thread, which was outlined in the OP in case you didn't notice.
(10-27-2014, 11:25 AM)Mímir Wrote: A poll where several faction accounts and known alts voted, just to top it off?
How is that not biased?
I thought you knew better.
Here's hoping the experiment wont fail.
Firstly, as a member of the staff, I know exactly who's voting. It is quite naive of you to assume that we're not aware of the votes made with alts.
Secondly, even discounting the alts, the vote is still clearly in favour of "yes".
(10-27-2014, 11:30 AM)Laura C. Wrote: ... Are now decision makings about story and ingame activity development only via polls?
...
Don't be daft. This poll is here to gauge the community's opinion on a particular matter. The decision itself is not made purely on the results of the poll.
(10-27-2014, 12:01 PM)Mímir Wrote: ... That could be accounted for in the story, and make the Rheinland-Liberty conflict just as likely to carry on or even make Liberty throw in the towel.
...
In this thread: a lot of players assuming that Liberty would emerge from the war entirely unscathed.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Mímir - 10-27-2014
I never said I thought Liberty would emerge unscathed. I was trying to challenge the people that go "liberty has X amount of ships, and x amount of credits, surely they must win" to do a bit of critical thinking based on real life evidence and history.
In general though, a poll of this nature is a terrible idea: You get people voting that are not involved in the Rheinland-Liberty conflict, but terribly involved in the forum. How do you plan on adjusting the results to correlate with that reality? Even if we move away from qualitative criteria, how to account for the people not voting and not using the forum? The population for the poll is not only skewed but also full of gaps, and as such the poll can be used as nothing else than an extremely weak indication in the best of cases, and a tool of manipulation in the worst of cases.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - An'shur - 10-27-2014
(10-27-2014, 11:30 AM)Laura C. Wrote: By the way, if we will make poll "should Rheinland get control over Texas because it deserves to conquer it" and option yes will win, will you change it according to poll too because "players want change" to quote your words?
Oh and last thing, why you didn´t make the poll "do you want Bering and Hudson jumpgates to be blown up" then? Well, at least I´m going to make poll about this right now because polls are now what counts, right?
+Infinity!
Make that polls please!
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Echo 7-7 - 10-27-2014
(10-27-2014, 12:57 PM)Mímir Wrote: I never said I thought Liberty would emerge unscathed. I was trying to challenge the people that go "liberty has X amount of ships, and x amount of credits, surely they must win" to do a bit of critical thinking based on real life evidence.
In general though, a poll of this nature is a terrible idea: You get people voting that are not involved in the Rheinland-Liberty conflict, but terribly involved in the forum. How do you plan on correlating the results to match that reality?
The forums are the official means of communication between the staff and players. If you think we're missing a certain demographic subset of players (ie. those who don't frequent the forum), then that would suggest either that they are not interested in participating in this discussion, or they're not aware of it, in which case you should try and convince them to visit the forums. Attempting to convince players to visit the forums beyond the existing notices is not the staff's perogative.
To reiterate, the actual numbers of the vote are irrelevant; it is to very broadly gauge the opinions of the player base.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Mímir - 10-27-2014
If I am thinking we're missing a demographic subset of players? Hello, don't you know?
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Pavel - 10-27-2014
Guys, easy.
Liberty and Rheinland may always enter an uneasy truce, and restore majority of severed trade links between corporations from both Houses, but if said truce is from time to time silently broken by both sides in a distant Bremen and New Hampshire systems, yet it doesn't result in return to full scale war, then why not?
Both Korean states from time to time exchange shoots, shell bit of uninhabited terrain, flex muscles, and South Korean companies always return to Kaesong zone when emotions cool down. Japan and Russia don't have a formal peace treaty until today, yell at each other about Kurile Islands and yet they have not small trade exchange.
Liberty-Rheinland war surely harmed corp factions on both sides. They lost imporant vanilla trade routes, local pirates such as Unioners, Xenos and Rogues in Hudson/Bering/Texas lost steady lawful pirateable traffic, and that harmed them aswell. When was the last time someone met Rogue pirating in Texas or Hudson?
Now, how I imagine that: inRP that war turns into Cold-War styled conflict and sides sign a truce. Majority of RM gets pulled back to inner Rheinland to fight pirates, LN relocates to California and Bretonia to repel Gallic invasion. Sometimes shootout between small local garrison RM/LN forces in Bremen/New Hampshire/Borderworlds happen, but neither side re-escalates it back into full war, as it doesn't make sense inRP and would harm them. In-gameplay turtles can still clash with dreadnoughts in Borderworlds if players want that, it simply doesn't happen inRP. Traders from both Houses are more happy with such situation and restore activity, pirates are happy, navy guys are happy.
Cookie is eaten and kept at the same time, it's a win-win scenario
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - larzac - 10-27-2014
(10-27-2014, 01:43 PM)Pavel Wrote: Guys, easy.
Liberty and Rheinland may always enter an uneasy truce, and restore majority of severed trade links between corporations from both Houses, but if said truce is from time to time silently broken by both sides in a distant Bremen and New Hampshire systems, yet it doesn't result in return to full scale war, then why not?
Both Korean states from time to time exchange shoots, shell bit of uninhabited terrain, flex muscles, and South Korean companies always return to Kaesong zone when emotions cool down. Japan and Russia don't have a formal peace treaty until today, yell at each other about Kurile Islands and yet they have not small trade exchange.
Liberty-Rheinland war surely harmed corp factions on both sides. They lost imporant vanilla trade routes, local pirates such as Unioners, Xenos and Rogues in Hudson/Bering/Texas lost steady lawful pirateable traffic, and that harmed them aswell. When was the last time someone met Rogue pirating in Texas or Hudson?
Now, how I imagine that: inRP that war turns into Cold-War styled conflict and sides sign a truce. Majority of RM gets pulled back to inner Rheinland to fight pirates, LN relocates to California and Bretonia to repel Gallic invasion. Sometimes shootout between small local garrison RM/LN forces in Bremen/New Hampshire/Borderworlds happen, but neither side re-escalates it back into full war, as it doesn't make sense inRP and would harm them. In-gameplay turtles can still clash with dreadnoughts in Borderworlds if players want that, it simply doesn't happen inRP. Traders from both Houses are more happy with such situation and restore activity, pirates are happy, navy guys are happy.
Cookie is eaten and kept at the same time, it's a win-win scenario
Perfect for me Pavel, you have a +42!!
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Mímir - 10-27-2014
While I commend you for the effort, Pavel, I think it's safe to say that it will never go down like that.
If ID's are changed to account for the story development, ZOI's will be changed. If not now, then soon. If ZOI's aren't changed, the Texas conflict just carries on, independently of what devs want. Moreover, it's also safe to assume that some dude will show up and start blabbering stuff about "oh you so oorp bla bla bla bla bla" the moment some turtles and liberty dreads start to duke it out, the storm will gather momentum and spill over to the forum and RNC/LNS will be frowned upon if fighting. New Hampshire and Bremen have never been, and will never be, systems of interest to most Disco players - they are too isolated. Displacing a conflict to those systems is the same as pulling the plug.
I am not saying that the Rheinland-Liberty conflict just HAS to be in the game, but I am afraid it is not easy to displace players to different venues (as it has been proven since the introduction of Gallia) as some might think. Here's a conflict that works, and it has proven itself again and again. A story, however, is quick and easy to write. If the problem is that the story doesn't match in-game events, then change the story. Afterall, it's interaction and activity that makes us log, not some half-baked story.
Another thing is, I play navy characters that wouldn't dream of fighting pirates because it is simply not my job. I ignore them completely as combat targets, as long as they don't interfere with navy business. Any discussion involving navies and their future, as well as battlefields, should be centered around other navies, never ever pirates. To add to that, there are sooooooooo many venues for cops vs robbers PVP and RP, but very few venues for symmetrical fleet combat - the latter can never be replaced by the first in terms of gameplay.
tl;dr: Disco would be a truly dynamic marvel of a game if story development was made to match in-game developments, rather than the other way round. That would leave our characters in the defining roles, rather than be extras playing out a (boring and predictable) scripted scenario.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Pavel - 10-27-2014
I understand you, but some people will always complain, no matter what is done. I imagine in uneasy truce scenario Hamburg and Texas are removed from respectively LN and RM ZoI, so if they want to fight they do so in Hudson/Bering/Bremen/New Hampshire. Sure it's not easy to automatically tell players "you go fight elsewhere now", and in that case they still could pew each others.
But what must be remembered is that we're moving on, storyline proceeds, and that people wish to end that conflict in its current state.
Due to vanilla lore except USI all other Libertonian corporations are allowed to trade (with some restrictions, admittedly, but we'll be lifting many of them soon) in Rheinland, and it seems to work. I don't recall any major problems per se between Rheinland law enforcement factions and Libertonian corporations just because they were allowed to trade in Rheinland. Interspace case is special one, because let's just say personal matters and stupid indie POB suppliers led to that. But even that was fixed, Interspace was allowed back to Rheinland (we still have some RP to finish about that, waiting for rephack updates)
I must disagree with you Mímir about navy-pirate factions; in lore many pirate groups are feared by underskilled, weaker equipped and trained police forces. RFP are afraid of fighting hessians according to infocards, BPA are eaten by Corsairs for breakfeast, and LN despise fat corrupted LPI who "wouldn't survive single patrol out there in Borderworlds". What makes "pirate", often in reality mixed pirate-revolutionary groups worse enemies than other naval factions? Their ships are more or less balanced to be on similar level, they field at least cruisers in 50%+ cases, they already have local bases ensuring easy and quick acces to activity hotspots such as crossroad systems and capital worlds...
What makes e.g. hessians* and corsairs* worse, lesser, unchallenging enemy for RM than Liberty Navy players?
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* without counting in current inactivity, which's largely the result of inactive leaderships, and can be quickly raised by indie pew groups