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+--- Thread: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback (/showthread.php?tid=117754)
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - Thyrzul - 11-21-2014
(11-21-2014, 02:03 PM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: Ah, well ... ZoI : As we have nobody we want to attack and no laws to enforce we don´t really have a ZoI...
Not you... The Junker ID. What ZoI are you talking about?
(11-21-2014, 02:03 PM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: the ID always has a predefined ZoI as far as I know
Where? Show me please.
(11-21-2014, 02:03 PM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: Rep Sheet / Rephack :
Most important is that we start neutral to unfriendly with Hogosha / Samura and other Kusari groups.
The whole idea behind T&T was originally to enable trade with PremScrap to lawful sellpoints.
Even if we sometimes carry scrap to Alpha or Gamma it´s not our main market, and the rep shows it ( or is meant to show it as soon as rephack is set )
The rest developed from there, and even the purpose behind getting a single ID is about diplomacy and rep :
We are Tinkers. Not quite Junkers, not quite Freelancers.
So as we get friendly with Council , IMG ... perhaps even CR| , we fully expect either to get hostile with Outcasts or at least get the same *nearly hostile but just unfriendly* rephack as with Hogosha / Samura ect.
One way or an other you going to get unfriendly with Kusari, just align yourself with CR and Council, and see their responses. Why not sport a Junker ID then?
By the way, you said you are going to try roleplaying "white collar Junkers", at first you will look like regular ones anyways, and only over will others be able to realize that you represent the most lawful aspect of all of the Junker groups, only through your actions.
By the way, you said you are going to try roleplaying "white collar Junkers", at first you will look like regular ones anyways, and only over will others be able to realize that you represent the most lawful aspect of all of the Junker groups, only through your actions.
(11-21-2014, 02:18 PM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: What we now want to achieve is our own ID, freely FR5able by official factions.
Pirateable by Hogosha, bannable by Samura, traceable and scanable by Kusari police and so on...
All of these are possible with the Junker ID too.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - FynnMcScrap - 11-21-2014
We have been playing with the Freelance trade ID for several months now,
opening connections and roleplaying as a new mix.
ZoI = Zone of Influence in wich a faction is commited to follow specific rules differing from a *all over Sirius* use.
Like in Junker case.
Checked in wiki :
Generic IDs have no restrictions on Zone of Interest, however have others restrictions, such as smaller cargo space, prohibition to freely engage targets to balance this freedom. ( Freelance ID for excemple )
Junker ID can demand cargo and credits from ships outside of Rheinland, Liberty and Bretonian house space, and attack them if they do not comply.
Can actively hunt Xenos and Hogosha anywhere and in case of JM| does so.
And can use transports up to 4,300 cargo.
So the Junker ID has a specific ZoI we do not wish to use,
and a specific combat allowance and a specific rep with other groups we do not wish to use.
We do wish to use Junker ship lines up to 3600 cargo, and "we" see us as Junker community mixed with Freelance traders to form something new.
Tinkers is a non-generic ID tailored to fit the style of play I described in the faction info.
We opt to build a specific rephack representing this, and are still working on diplomacy.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - Thyrzul - 11-21-2014
All the Junker ZoI limits is where they can pirate, from the looks of your faction that barely affects you, if it does at all, does it?
All you said is that there are things you can but don't want to do with a Junker ID. How is that a reason against Junker ID? These things are not even limitations, but allowances.
All you said is that there are things you can but don't want to do with a Junker ID. How is that a reason against Junker ID? These things are not even limitations, but allowances.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - FynnMcScrap - 11-22-2014
(11-21-2014, 07:00 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:All the Junker ZoI limits is where they can pirate, from the looks of your faction that barely affects you, if it does at all, does it?
All you said is that there are things you can but don't want to do with a Junker ID. How is that a reason against Junker ID? These things are not even limitations, but allowances.
Sry... you leave me confounded ?
The Junker ID can do a lot of things we do not want to do, together with a whole lot of rep we want to avoid.
And these *allowances* are not what we want to gain, they are CONTRARY to our primary goal : legal scrap trade.
Fact is we want neither a Junker ID nor a Freelancer ID, but something close to Junker ID swapping some of these allowances for a more neutral rep. And are prepared to pay for it in allowances and cargo space for balance.
I offered even to take a reduced scrapping rate in the exposee , as PremScrap mining is pretty fast.
We want to keep the Junker background, jes.
For RP reasons, for shipline and even for diplomacy.
But still we are building the whole faction around the continuing struggle to *get as legal as we can while staying as free as we want* . Exactly this struggle is what Tinker´s is all about ? Clinging close to the borderline between quasilawful and lawful while playing the *good guy* Junker ?
Sorry to say, I do not entirely understand your argumentation.
Other way round : why should we want to get the Junker ID ?
FR5 right together with 2 established official factions ?
Cargo allowance ? Piracy allowance ?
I´d rather quit any goal to get official than start a pissing contest for the sake of getting some allowances we do not use, thank you.
I want to base the Tinker ID on Junker ID together with Freelance trading, and am cutting away allowances and cargo space to *pay for*.
Now you tell me I can simply stay Junker...
Nope. Because *not simply to stay an ostracised, hated and quasi - outlawed Junker* is exactly what our primary goal is about.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - FynnMcScrap - 11-22-2014
(11-21-2014, 02:05 PM)Lumik8 Wrote:(11-21-2014, 09:55 AM)Thyrzul Wrote:
And what are the differences between your rep sheet and the rephacks of Freelancer ID and Junker ID?
If I remember correctly, Junker ID is rephacked to no dock with Ageira, Liberty Navy, Samura and Kishiro (and gallic corps but this doesn´t matter for them) and to hostile with KSP and KNF, that´s what they want to avoid (except Samura) while keeping scrap mining ability (and bonuses).
EDIT: As for suggestions... Hard to tell. Maybe you should find things you can sacrifice to show you are not just cherry pickers who want only good things from both IDs while getting away from bad things. Being hostile with Gallia is not enough in my opinion. Maybe going to hostile (or at least no dock) rep with Corsairs and Outcats could work, it will belong to your role of "law abiding traders with scrap and other goods" and show you are willing to sacrifice part of junkers abilities (premium scrap/contraband trading routes to Omicron Gamma and Alpha) to get access to lawful stations.
Edit : I agree. Getting nearly hostile or hostile to Outcasts and perhaps even to Corsairs would be logical.
And as we got friendly with IMG / Council it´s logical towards Outcasts.
Corsairs would cut a possible engagement area between T&T/ and Hogosha outside of Kusari / Liberty, but not seriously hamper our trade. As a fact I´d like to keep them neutral , and rather use it to fly some supply / food runs ect.
Or If we loose them, use it to get friendly with the Hessians. Ah, we will see.
Goal here is to have a reason to pass through Rheinland, both visibly ( to trade from Kusari to Bretonia or to relocate refugees ) and discreetly ( while flying the holes to supply either Hessians or pass through to the Corsairs ).
Fun fact : if you look at the Junkers trade to Alpha / Gamma it´s only fine if you can take back high-profit stuff like the Orange or Jewellry. If you don´t , it detoriates quickly to a slightly more than normal trade route with high risk.
That´s why I started looking at the other sellpoints after all.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - Thyrzul - 11-22-2014
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: And these *allowances* are not what we want to gain
Allowances are not obligatories, not limitations. Just because you can pirate, you don't have to pirate. I understand that you do not need them to carry on with your faction, but I don't understand how you couldn't carry on with your faction with them around.
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: they are ADDITIONAL to our primary goal : legal scrap trade.
Fixed that for you.
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: Fact is we want neither a Junker ID nor a Freelancer ID, but something close to Junker ID swapping some of these allowances for a more neutral rep. And are prepared to pay for it in allowances and cargo space for balance.
You said more neutral rep, but then you want to align yourselves with CR and Council, which is in turn gonna align you against most of Kusari, the only thing you seemingly don't want from the Junker ID rephack. That sounds contradictory.
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: We want to keep the Junker background, jes.
For RP reasons, for shipline and even for diplomacy.
Again, Junker background and diplomacy includes said neutrality limits you want to get rid of with not using the Junker ID. Do you want to start out with Junker background and diplomacy, only to later evolve your own from it through roleplay? If yes, you can do that with the Junker ID itself. If not, then don't say you do.
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: But still we are building the whole faction around the continuing struggle to *get as legal as we can while staying as free as we want* . Exactly this struggle is what Tinker´s is all about ? Clinging close to the borderline between quasilawful and lawful while playing the *good guy* Junker ?
"We are building" is in continuous tense, you talk about a continuous process, but want to have the effects of it in the form of a Tinkers ID with it's own Tinkers rep sheet right at the beginning of said process. The two things are incompatible, either you get the effects of a continuous process continuously, our you get done with the process immediately to get the effects immediately. There has to be a correlation.
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: Other way round : why should we want to get the Junker ID ?
FR5 right together with 2 established official factions ?
You said you want to start out as Junkers and prove you are not like any of the other Junker factions, didn't you?
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: Cargo allowance ? Piracy allowance ?
Ignore them?
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: I´d rather quit any goal to get official than start a pissing contest for the sake of getting some allowances we do not use, thank you.
Why would anybody need a pissing contest to pick an open-use ID?
(11-22-2014, 05:46 AM)FynnMcScrap Wrote: Because *not simply to stay an ostracised, hated and quasi - outlawed Junker* is exactly what our primary goal is about.
Aaaaaaaand you can be pretty much that, I see no reason why you couldn't roleplay yourselves as "legal" Junkers. You won't prove your surrounding that you are unlike the rest by having a unique ID, you prove it with your actions, roleplay, etc. To me the Junker lore and roleplay looks wide enough to incorporate the kind of roleplay you are aiming to conduct. Not all junkers are the same, evidence for that are both JM and Congress. And now, you.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - FynnMcScrap - 11-23-2014
Quote:Topic 1 ) Current situation
We are currently using 2 ID : Main faction ( Tinker&Transport ) is using the Freelancer ID for several reasons, but as we focus on scrap trading as our main economic basis we employ Junker ID scrap miners on a regular payroll, offering them security and health care and a lot of other bonuses ihn the deal. This is accepted by both official Junker factions ( .:J:. and JM| ) even though the diplomatic stance of T&T is different to their rep sheets. This is also the main and focal point in the RP background for T&T , and can not be changed without sacrificing the whole RP idea.
T&T is the nearly - lawful side of the Junker Trinity
I have no real problem to use the Junker ID, but it is important to us that we work with a different rep, as we work FOR a different rep as major RP aim of the faction.
So by using the Junker ID ( and we currently do use the junker ID with the J/T&T/ transponder ) we immediately get the rephack for it.
Quote:Allowances are not obligatories, not limitations. Just because you can pirate, you don't have to pirate. I understand that you do not need them to carry on with your faction, but I don't understand how you couldn't carry on with your faction with them around.
We could carry on, but they are contradictory to our RP.
ID rules are paramount, and if an ID allows something it WILL be used by somebody. So why should I greet having them in the aimed for ID ?
Quote:You said more neutral rep, but then you want to align yourselves with CR and Council, which is in turn gonna align you against most of Kusari, the only thing you seemingly don't want from the Junker ID rephack. That sounds contradictory.
Nope, that sounds like complicated diplomacy. And that makes up about 50 % of our RP. Where is the problem ?
So if we do not set a "pewpew this / that faction out of existance" goal but set a difficult and complicated diplomatic balance as a goal and work hard to keep it it´s not oK ?
Quote:Again, Junker background and diplomacy includes said neutrality limits you want to get rid of with not using the Junker ID. Do you want to start out with Junker background and diplomacy, only to later evolve your own from it through roleplay? If yes, you can do that with the Junker ID itself. If not, then don't say you do.
We started with Freelancer rep and Junker rep, openly stating our affiliation. And all our RP so far has worked with this difficulty, LWAYS openly stating that we have members that use Junker ID , and members who use Freelancer ID. We now want to grow together to a single ID, to simplify things and RP a process that has been going on in RP since we started the faction.
Again : why is this a problem ?
Quote:"We are building" is in continuous tense, you talk about a continuous process, but want to have the effects of it in the form of a Tinkers ID with it's own Tinkers rep sheet right at the beginning of said process. The two things are incompatible, either you get the effects of a continuous process continuously, our you get done with the process immediately to get the effects immediately. There has to be a correlation.
We are building, and we will continue to build, to react, to play.
The process started with Fynn building the Haven together with Tukker ( oK, both my characters ) and has been continuing since then. And will continue as long as these characters and others who like to play the same sort of game play with us.
LORE is definite but can be developed with timeline advancing.
GAMING is evolving, changing, adjusting.
I see no discrepancy . Every ship / character has a repsheet that can change. Factions have a rep that can change with a rephack ...
We want to take our current situation, tailor a specific rep sheet that can be used by all Tinkers that reflects this situation, and then moove on.
Again : I do not understand your insistance that this is not possible.
Quote:You said you want to start out as Junkers and prove you are not like any of the other Junker factions, didn't you?
I wrote thus as an excemple if you look at it the other way round ... to show another posibility, to further explore options.
Please keep context in mind and do not pick out single sentences and then start hacking out errors or misunderstandings OUTSIDE of context.
Quote:Aaaaaaaand you can be pretty much that, I see no reason why you couldn't roleplay yourselves as "legal" Junkers. You won't prove your surrounding that you are unlike the rest by having a unique ID, you prove it with your actions, roleplay, etc. To me the Junker lore and roleplay looks wide enough to incorporate the kind of roleplay you are aiming to conduct. Not all junkers are the same, evidence for that are both JM and Congress. And now, you.
And Tinkers ID is meant to reflect exactly that.
We do not NEED or WANT certain *allowances* , and the reputation that comes with these allowances. So why should we strive to have them ?
To see some unexperienced player use them, and then get the flames ?
Thanks for luring me into a sheepdog stance and see me running to guard any player using the ID. I´d rather stay inofficial then.
Also : Tinker´s second major goal is humanitarian, and is connected with the Freelance SRO ( Sirius Relief Organisation ) and the Haven Memorial Clinic.
We are in a fusioning process that we want to RP out in the time needed to get official ( 3 months or up to 6 months is it ? ).
By insisting we use Junker ID you completely forget this angle. We do not.
It is part of Tinkers too, like some space born elexier peddler ...
We do not only trade in scrap. We run blokades, work for a better life, use the *tricks of the trade* BOTH Junker and Freelancer pilots learn to survive.
The new ID may not show much here, but adding lines like *may offer medical and mechanic aid to any ship not shooting at them* do not fit into a ID card.
So thx for feedback
Rob
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - SnakThree - 11-23-2014
Jinkers would suit your name so much better.
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - FynnMcScrap - 11-23-2014
(11-23-2014, 07:43 AM)Snak3 Wrote: Jinkers would suit your name so much better.
*laughs*
From you that´s a compliment, Snak3
Nah, Tinker fit´s well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker
Quote:Tinker, Tailor,
Soldier, Sailor,
Rich Man, Poor Man,
Beggar Man, Thief.
Who shall it be, shall it be me ?
RE: T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback - Doreen - 11-25-2014
Wow! A lot to absorb here. On the ID front, I like option 1. True that we have had some positive diplomacy with Kusari people but as we all know how Kusari treats Junkers, a few Kusari peoples that choose to accept us can always visit and perhaps in time with RP the Kusari government can judge us separately from Junkers as a whole.
As mentioned, Tinkers has much to do with humanitarian efforts and that is often recognized as an honorable cause by many. Not all but many.
I'll read some more and give further comment later.