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Of Hosts and Guests - Elephant - 07-31-2014
Recently, and also a few times less recent, I've seen certain analogies regarding admin-player relations as "hosts" and "guests" being made in discussions about how people get along here. They reflect (and spread, to a point) a view which is in my opinion not only inaccurate, but also very detrimental to... people getting along.
Please note that this is not intended as a continuation of the thread about the "new" enforcement of rule 1.2, but as a discussion about how people perceive the roles of "hosts" and "guests" here, so please don't start talking about rule 1.2.
Quote:The players are guests in the host's house. If the host asks the guest to take their shoes off at the door, the guests can either take their shoes off, or leave if they don't wish to remove their shoes. It's really not cool for the guest to throw their shoes at the host's face and call the host a fascist, before breaking all the stuff in the host's house.
Quote:The long and short of it is this... You chose to play here, therefore you chose to be subject to the whims of the owners.
To begin, I won't contest the analogy of calling admins, devs, or a certain group of "core" people (for what ever that may mean) hosts, and "the rest" being their guests. Although I don't think that its really a terribly good analogy (I'll explain why later), lets start by pretending that it is.
Generally, it's indeed not cool to throw your shoes at your host's face and call him a fascist because he asks you to take off your shoes. However, there are a number of scenarios where throwing shoes at your host is very understandable, and probably even the right thing to do.
For example, if someone invites you to play a game promising fair treatment, delicious food, and that all you have to do is take off your shoes, play fair, and help a little bit in the kitchen. So you help in the kitchen, take off your shoes, and the game begins. After a while you notice that there are players wearing spiked shoes, stepping on your and other player's bare feet. When you complain and start putting your own shoes back on, your host blows a referee whistle and calls you disruptive to his game because you're complaining, and you're breaking the rules by wearing the shoes without his permission. After the game, your host eats the food that you helped make, serves some of it to the players with spiked shoes, while you and the other people with bare feet get the kitchen refuse. When you confront your host again, he tells you that those players earned the right to wear spiked shoes and eat better food by being collaborative towards him, and not disruptive like you, and that asking them to take their shoes off and giving them the same food as you would therefore be unfair towards them. He then tells you that it was you who chose to subject yourself to his whims by being his guest, and among the laughter of the players who had fun stepping on your feet and eating your food, he tells you that you're free to leave.
In such a situation, where a host attracts guests to his house using false promises, so that he and his friends can have fun at their expense, a shoe to the face of the host is pretty well deserved, or should at least not be unexpected. It just so happens that this sort of "hosting" is exactly what the statement "guests are at the whims of the host" promotes. Just like a good guest accepts his responsibility towards his host, a good host accepts his responsibility towards his guests, especially concerning promises that he made to them.
Now you may say that a host behaving like this is extremely unlikely. Well, so is guests throwing shoes at their hosts. Both would be unlikely, if we weren't on the internet, in an anonymous environment, where people can throw shoes and just go to the next host (if there is one, which hasn't really been the case anymore for the last 5 years if you want to play freelancer), but which also has a nearly unlimited supply of suckers that you can keep tricking with bogus promises (which has been the case for a long time, but which is now dwindling because of general loss of interest in the game itself). That's part of why the pajama party analogy isn't that good, but its not the only reason.
Quote:The oligarchy does have a self imposed limit, and that is that major abuses of the system would result in the oligarchy ruling over an empty community. The people who choose to become part of running something so minor as this (with no real power by which to be lured, and no tangible personal gain to be had), would presumably choose to become one of those oligarchs because they love the community in some way. None of the people invested in running the show want to see it end, and therefore it is in their interests to be benevolent and well-meaning to the people over whom they rule.
First of all, "with no real power by which to be lured, and no tangible personal gain to be had" is somewhat of a problematic statement. There is only no real power and no personal gain to be had if the adminning system is transparent, subjected to rules which are enforced, and controllable by people outside the admin team. But this is exactly what people who are against the democratic approach are opposed to. There are of course people who are mature and capable of self-restraint who won't abuse power as admins, and who will not use the position for personal gain without possibility of anyone checking on them. But if the ideal case was generally applicable, we wouldn't need any rules or admins who decide who gets to stay and who doesn't in the first place. If there is no transparency, no rules, and no control, there is a lot of personal gain to be had and power to be abused, and I'm not talking about admin guns, .addcash, and .deletechar. As admin your judgment affects who gets to speak and who doesn't on the forum (power to remove posts, lock threads, remove posting rights). You get to stick labels on people and their actions (sanction or no sanction thread). Last but not least, you get a number of people who will tell others that you're right just because you're wearing an admin badge, and who will pretend that you're some sort of global benefactor or host of us all, even when in reality you may have done nothing that actually benefits anyone except a small group of people surrounding you, to the detriment of other people. I don't think that the power to shift opinions using these "assets" is a minor one, especially when opinions are made to matter more than objective criteria in things like sanctions and SRPs.
Second, the kind of "the proof that someone is right to do something is that they are able to do it and get away with it" and "the proof that those in power are suited for power is that they're in power" reasoning being used in the quote can justify pretty much anything, in any dictatorial crapwhole in the world. You may as well justify the previous shoe-based example by the fact that the host was able to keep long term players with spiked shoes extremely happy because there was a steady stream of new suckers who believed in the original promises, work in the kitchen, and play with their shoes off, and by how a lot of the lovely non-disruptive long term players with full bellies and spiked shoes would leave if you either took their spiked shoes away or let everyone wear them. Well, yeah, both may be true, in a community that was built in that way. It doesn't mean that the "host" was doing things right, that there's no better way of doing things, and that people are wrong to disagree with his idea of fun.
That being said, here's why I don't really consider admins in general as my hosts, and myself or the general server population their guest, in the sense that I/we have to submit to their whims or constantly be in a state of thankfulness to each and every one of them:
It may be a privately owned and run server, but it's intentionally an open server that lives from everyone who plays and contributes to it, and most of those contributions are not coming from the admins. They come from the imaginations of everyone who role plays, the excitements provided by everyone who PvPs, the donations, the new ship models and other dev work, the makers of the original Freelancer game, and also from people who don't know how to RP well but are still contributing by their presence, trading, mining, and PvPing without being total douchebags. I'm thankful for every single one of these, and they've contributed much more to my enjoyment then some guy who was declared admin at some point (or who for some other reason considers himself part of the "hosts") and tells me that I'm subjected to his whims by choosing to play here, who tells me I owe him although he's effectively done nothing for me, and who thinks I owe him respect although he's been nothing but a douchebag towards me.
Sure, there are certain people in the admin team who do things without which discovery wouldn't exist, who do great jobs as admins (great jobs not meaning that they don't make mistakes, but meaning that they have the honesty to admit them), and although I may still disagree with them on some things, they have my thanks and respect for that, just like everyone who doesn't act like a douche does. But do I feel like that for all admins, just because they hold or held that position? No. Someone calling admins "hosts" who's whims should be followed and putting off the players who provide the main reasons for why most people play here as mere guests who should submit to the "host's" whims or leave is incredibly rude and unappreciative towards the general server population.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Highland Laddie - 07-31-2014
Easy response: unless you plan to throttle the bad host and replace him (its if you even had the power to do so) you leave the bad host's house and go somewhere else.
You're certainly free to make suggestions to the host that you believe may help them, and a good host would be foolish to ignore them all, but people seem to often forget that they are in-fact guests, yet they make demands and threats because they think their host is actually an idiot or incompetent. The easy answer to that is, again, to go somewhere else.
Long story short: it's much easier to be a whiny guest than a good host. Folks need to appreciate that.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Papa Oomaumau - 07-31-2014
Summon Karlotta sniffer....
Edit:
There is an ultimate test as to whether you are a host or a guest, and that's; can you log in if you are uninvited.
This idea that the server 'lives in its playerbase' is highly subjective, and is speculative and intangible.
The entire precept collapses if/when the host turns off the server.
There is zero quid pro quo agreement here in terms of service.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Zen_Mechanics - 07-31-2014
I think admins are actually fair, even though I still think they are completely blind to the true inequity of other discovery players, but perhaps are too afraid to do anything about it. You know, there was a time where I used to complain about this unfairness, and no one give a rat - you dont know what its like to be bullied and pushed into the corner and compelled to choose submission or endless cruelty. I can mention these emi award factions but I won't - but that's how discovery works, so laddie, telling him to submit or go away is not the kind of anwser I would hope to listen to. You were lucky to be in the other side of tings so I'm convinced you don't know how that feels. People are free to go as they please, but the very fact that they address this issue that we should take measure. They dont do this to piss anyone, because eventully they want to stay - so please, find something better to say or dont say anything at all.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Highland Laddie - 07-31-2014
@ Zen - no matter how you want to butter-up the issue with feelings and sympathies (of which I DO sympathize, trust me, and yes I do know what it feels like to be bullied), the fact of the matter still remains that it's really idiotic in my mind to think that a person who is receiving that much abuse would continue to remain in the place and amongst the people who are bullying him.
Again...we are the GUESTS. A guest that feels they are being rudely treated, bullied, or abused, should make their case to the Host(s). If the host does NOTHING...then you leave the host's house, since they obviously don't have your best interest in mind. Because there is really nothing else you, as a guest, can do about it, except piss & whine to the rest of the guests, perhaps in some vain hope that you will embarrass the host into changing (which is apparently what people keep trying to do and hoping that it will work), which really doesn't do anything but make everyone else have a less pleasant party. It would probably be better if those guests just left the party, honestly.
But as you have yourself pointed out, you DO think the Admins try to do a good job at keeping things fair (of course not perfectly, as we're all human), so then the problem is not the Host, but the Guests. So, either you find a way to stop folks from being dicks on the Internet, or you bear with things as best you can, or you leave. Might not be the warm, fuzzy message everybody would LIKE to hear, but it's the truth.
And I challenge you to find me a multi-player game server that doesn't have this problem. I have yet to see one.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Elephant - 08-01-2014
(07-31-2014, 11:45 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: @ Zen - no matter how you want to butter-up the issue with feelings and sympathies (of which I DO sympathize, trust me, and yes I do know what it feels like to be bullied), the fact of the matter still remains that it's really idiotic in my mind to think that a person who is receiving that much abuse would continue to remain in the place and amongst the people who are bullying him.
Again...we are the GUESTS. A guest that feels they are being rudely treated, bullied, or abused, should make their case to the Host(s). If the host does NOTHING...then you leave the host's house, since they obviously don't have your best interest in mind. Because there is really nothing else you, as a guest, can do about it, except piss & whine to the rest of the guests, perhaps in some vain hope that you will embarrass the host into changing (which is apparently what people keep trying to do and hoping that it will work), which really doesn't do anything but make everyone else have a less pleasant party. It would probably be better if those guests just left the party, honestly.
There are a few more things that enter the equation, which make these kinds of party and host analogies of little use.
Firstly, there are actually a lot of people that one may like to interact with here, apart from the host and the bullies, who deliver their part of the deal although others including the host don't, because they believe the fake contract that they were lured here with actually would be a good way of playing, even if the bullies and the host don't live up to it.
Second, its actually pretty easy to avoid the bullies if you know how and you know who they are and how they operate, and it's still possible to have fun if you do.
Thirdly, unlike what you say, the whining and pissing actually doesn't negatively affect the people who aren't bullies and who aren't hosts that support them. It only negatively affects the bullies and the hosts who support them.
Fourth, having the feeling that you're fighting bullying of other people by people who bullied you can give you a great amount of personal satisfaction.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Highland Laddie - 08-01-2014
(07-31-2014, 11:30 PM)Papa Oomaumau Wrote: Summon Karlotta sniffer....
Indeed...
Quote:Firstly, there are actually a lot of people that one may like to interact with here, apart from the host and the bullies, who deliver their part of the deal although others including the host don't, because they believe the fake contract that they were lured here with actually would be a good way of playing, even if the bullies and the host don't live up to it.
Maybe, but those other guests are also not the host...so the point is meaningless in terms of their actual power. You're still guest of the host, and thus, subject to the host's rules....not the other guests' shared values.
Quote:Second, its actually pretty easy to avoid the bullies if you know how and you know who they are and how they operate, and it's still possible to have fun if you do.
Then it should be equally easy to shut-up and play the game without be-moaning your imagined slights in front of the whole party. Enjoy the party and avoid the bullies. Don't come on the forums and decry the injustices and incompetence of the host (and then whine when they ban you for being an instigator and trouble-maker)
Quote:Thirdly, unlike what you say, the whining and pissing actually doesn't negatively affect the people who aren't bullies and who aren't hosts that support them. It only negatively affects the bullies and the hosts who support them.
It negatively affects me, often when I'm not even involved....and I can't imagine I'm the only one, so actually it can and does affect others. Only selfish or childish guests would assume that its their feelings that matter the most, especially at someone else's party.
Quote:Fourth, having the feeling that you're fighting bullying of other people by people who bullied you can give you a great amount of personal satisfaction.
Yes, but your psycho-therapy sessions need not have to take place in public. Use PMs for that. Not everyone is interested in a public display of your personal satisfaction.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Zen_Mechanics - 08-01-2014
Until this place goes anti-clockwise toward theocracy and doesnt allow a person to voice his opinion and the ability to make a change, people will use that right and its your job to prefect this on to yourself and others.
Who the bloody hell do you ( I mean you as in general " think you are, telling people " this is my property and you will not only obey me but also arrange my socks - because i have more posts and more friends on my skype list".
Yeah I made that last bit up, but only because it is the only Image I get whenever I hear this stuff, factions that barely sustain themselves on the activity tracker and yet as just as powerful as they were once. I guess now that the admins are going head-on with 1.2, we'll likely to see people with your attitude being airbrushed. This is a free place for everyone to enjoy, and I'll sacrifice my own status so that 20 people will get the chance to enjoy this game without anyone telling them bullcrap. Wanna refute my comments? Go ahead, show us all how a good example you are to people who come here.
Whatever happend to those people who say " i dont accept your opinions but ill defend your right to voice them" - maybe on their way to vacation.
last minute update ;
this is my final comment on this subject, i'm not replying to this thread anymore because i have voiced my opinion, reject it, accept it, but don't tell people to cring under the pressure of some veterans if they want to play here. Fight them and make sure that the people who come here are 1000000% free to do as they please without anyone bullying them or playing with them.
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - SnakThree - 08-01-2014
When hosts start gagging people for no real reason, that is when I will be leaving...
RE: Of Hosts and Guests - Highland Laddie - 08-02-2014
Quote:Fight them and make sure that the people who come here are 1000000% free to do as they please without anyone bullying them or playing with them.
Except...you're not free do do as you please, unless it's fully in compliance with the Host's rules.
And don't assume that just because I have this attitude that I'm not friendly or encouraging to new folks that come to the server.
Quote:Whatever happend to those people who say " i dont accept your opinions but ill defend your right to voice them" - maybe on their way to vacation.
Oh please...you're no martyr of anything but yourself. You certainly have the right to your opinion...that doesn't make it correct, it doesn't make it the law (unless you're the Host), and it doesn't mean that I enjoy listening to it.