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+--- Thread: Rational Jump Trade (/showthread.php?tid=122048)
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Garrett Jax - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 01:51 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: I would REALLY like some one to explain to me how a single stranger demanding, "Gimme (money/cargo) or die!" then flying off is RP while spending time with a group of friends setting up a trading event is not.
"Legitimate traders avoiding pirates is bad for the server, so the pirates need to be given artificial advantages." Is that an accurate paraphrase of the above? Just making sure I understood what you are saying. If so, would you PLEASE explain to me what the benefit of piracy is to the server? The SERVER, ergo the community, not the individual.
There are more factions on this server than just trading factions. We have military, unlawful, bounty hunters, nomads, infected and others. Jumping from one point to another robs each and every one of these factions the opportunity to interact with you.
The excitement and thrill of this game is the fact that you have to wade through several possible encounters in order to reach your destination. By allowing jump trading to exist, traders get to skip all this, jumping straight to their destination, robbing themselves and others of any potential encounter at all.
This lack of interaction kills activity for others and is ultimately self defeating for everyone.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - larzac - 10-23-2014
Yeah sure, it was killing activity for others (ironic mod activated).
Now everyone is equal, it kills activity for everyone, like this, everyone is happy.
I see you coming saying: bla bla you are part of congress bla bla jump trader bla bla.
you should know that i never jumped except once in rheinland (maybe not the good timezone help) but what i see is that since jump has been remove, look at faction activity. And not only congress activity, ALL factions.
Except [FL-ER], every faction lost activity time since the begining of the test. It could be a coincidence, but i think you arent fool enough to believe that. Everyone can do mistakes, even our dearly admins and devs, and it's normal you are human (even if jens is maybe a reborn tractor...) but the problem isnt to do mistake, the problem is when you dont fix them. Now, look at the result of this test and think to his result. And please, stop to listen to people who moan more than they play (today i am probably part of them, but it's just today i promise
).
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Chrystoph - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 02:50 AM)Garrett Jax Wrote: There are more factions on this server than just trading factions. We have military, unlawful, bounty hunters, nomads, infected and others. Jumping from one point to another robs each and every one of these factions the opportunity to interact with you.
The excitement and thrill of this game is the fact that you have to wade through several possible encounters in order to reach your destination. By allowing jump trading to exist, traders get to skip all this, jumping straight to their destination, robbing themselves and others of any potential encounter at all.
This lack of interaction kills activity for others and is ultimately self defeating for everyone.
This is rather a Straw Man sort of argument, but OK.
First, you didn't actually address my questions.
Second, you presume, very incorrectly, that the trading community doesn't want RP.
Third, unless ALL those players do is "power trade", they have, in my experience, other characters whose purpose is RP.
Fourth, the argument about interaction presented above is horribly spurious, given that people are MORE likely to interact with a fleet movement than a group of traders. Look back at the threads that have been presented showing large groups of military vessels, then look at the threads with a handful of traders. Which one gets responded to?
The two sides of the argument presented are that the military needs jump because it will get them to the fighting in one clump while traders just avoid contact by using jump, and the opposite position that jump be unrestricted. I submit to you that the argument against traders works PERFECTLY against the military. I'll substitute military for trader (changes colored so) in your argument above.
"There are more factions on this server than just military factions. We have trading, unlawful, bounty hunters, nomads, infected and others. Jumping from one point to another robs each and every one of these factions the opportunity to interact with you."
Finally, since interaction is a two way street, why do you keep subordinating me to some theoretical individual? I ask because, in the majority of my faction encounters across several Houses, they chose not to interact with me, in many cases ignoring my intentional gambit to start RP. I understand when you have other obligations. Tell me so (nod to Director Lancaster). If I get the same set of (non)responses more than once, eventually, I will stop trying. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Clique-like behavior is a human norm, but you cannot have it both ways, either a person is part of your group or not. Complaining that they won't play ONLY when you want them to then forcing your position on them by limiting THEIR gaming is trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Laura C. - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 01:51 AM)Chrystoph Wrote:(10-22-2014, 03:26 PM)Laura C. Wrote: This is RPG game. And every RPG game must find balance between " this make sense" on one side and "this doesn´t harm the gameplay much" on the other side. Unrestricted jump trading made more harm than good to gameplay because in majority of cases it reduced interaction between traders and pirates/unlawfuls because traders instead of going through several systems were jumping to and back between two or three systems (and very often even off the plane to do maximum to avoid any interaction).
Interaction between traders and pirates is one of the key parts of server ingame life cycle so it needs to be protected.
I would REALLY like some one to explain to me how a single stranger demanding, "Gimme (money/cargo) or die!" then flying off is RP while spending time with a group of friends setting up a trading event is not.
"Legitimate traders avoiding pirates is bad for the server, so the pirates need to be given artificial advantages." Is that an accurate paraphrase of the above? Just making sure I understood what you are saying. If so, would you PLEASE explain to me what the benefit of piracy is to the server? The SERVER, ergo the community, not the individual.
Don´t forget that jumptrading exists for limited time. It was not in game all the time, it was added. So in fact it was traders who got "artificial advantage" when jumping was introduced and restricting the jumping now just return server closer to the previous state.
I think that Garrett already explained it. Moving traders are fuel for pirates and unlawfuls in general. And this is then fuel for lawfuls (except wars which are fuel for militaries). Less encounters for unlawfuls means less fun and less people playing. Less unlawfuls means less encounters for lawfuls and this again means less fun and less people playing.
Jumping was interesting idea. There were groups, which were doing it and included lot of RP ingame and even on forums. Unfortunately, another lot of people are doing simple "secretly load, jump and secretly sell, repeat until you are very rich". There was lot of abusing of IDs and lot of actions didn´t make any sense inRP. Too much players started to see jumptrading as easy way for making huge amount of money (especially with barges) without any consideration what their actions means.
Jumping without any restrictions and rules was same like PoBs building without restrictions and rules. It created too much harm over good when some people changed idea made with good intentions into bad use. Some change was needed in my opinion.
(10-23-2014, 09:25 AM)larzac Wrote: Yeah sure, it was killing activity for others (ironic mod activated).
Now everyone is equal, it kills activity for everyone, like this, everyone is happy.
I see you coming saying: bla bla you are part of congress bla bla jump trader bla bla.
you should know that i never jumped except once in rheinland (maybe not the good timezone help) but what i see is that since jump has been remove, look at faction activity. And not only congress activity, ALL factions.
Except [FL-ER], every faction lost activity time since the begining of the test. It could be a coincidence, but i think you arent fool enough to believe that. Everyone can do mistakes, even our dearly admins and devs, and it's normal you are human (even if jens is maybe a reborn tractor...) but the problem isnt to do mistake, the problem is when you dont fix them. Now, look at the result of this test and think to his result. And please, stop to listen to people who moan more than they play (today i am probably part of them, but it's just today i promise
Come on, this is way way big generalization. Every faction lost activity? Well, RFP which I know very well didn´t. OSI wich was almost dead went up in last three weeks, same goes for VWA. And very likely there are some others which I didn´t notice. Please stay reasonable and don´t misinterpret facts.
And generally, how can unlawful factions, police factions and even military faction be affected by restriction of jump trading? You are here long enough to know that every September and October activity goes down becase school and later university start so players have less time to play. So no, less activity is not caused only by jump trading restriction. There may be some influence, but I doubt it´s major one, especially for non-trading factions.
I know that .j. (mentioning it as number one of activity list and because you are in it, no attack or flame intented) lost like ten or even fifteen days of activity. I don´t know how much you were using jumping so how much your faction activity was influenced by restriction. But another junkers JM- lost few days too and I´m not aware they were using jump trading so I doubt it´s caused by the restriction trial period. Same goes for GMG or Ageira or IMG (which is the famous one for staying with "old-fashioned" convoys instead of jumptrading, despite they have resources, ships and players to do so). And I can go on.
I simply doubt that jump trading restriction (and it´s even only restriction, not complete remove) can really significantly affect server activity. If there are players who do jump trading majority of their playing time and will leave if they can´t continue because they refuse traditional trading, then I´m not sure what to say about it. Jump trading was never intented to be main activity which should replace "old-fashioned" roaming in the trade lanes.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Haste - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 10:00 AM)Chrystoph Wrote: [Snip summarized as "Piracy is bad, why can't we jump and simply avoid it altogether?"]
My friend, there is a certain chain of events that generates activity that has proven itself time and time again.
Traders trade primarily to gain credits. Pirates then park themselves on the traders' routes to pirate them, for credits, to satisfy their egos with blue messages and perhaps even because they simply enjoy playing the role of the 'bad guy'. Lawful factions, such as the police and military, then respond to the presence of these pirates and attempt to remove them from their space. Each group contributes to the activity in a certain region.
Unfortunately this chain of events never comes to be if the traders jumptrade. After all, there is no route that pirates can attempt to intercept jumptraders on. So the lawfuls have no reason to log on and do their job either.
I think I'm not the only one who noticed that in the last half year or so - coincidentally a period in which I saw a lot of jumptrading occur - pirates left the lanes and, instead, hunted the lawfuls down in large packs. A new situation that I personally find far less interesting as I find it much less natural than the previous situation where lawfuls would come upon a pirate and catch them red-handed, after which the engagement began. With fewer targets to pirate, both because of reduced overall population and an increase in the popularity of jumptrading, pirates had few other options than taking a more aggressive stance.
Jumptrading, in the end, harms the server. This is why it should be restricted.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Mímir - 10-23-2014
Y'all are very patient.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - larzac - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 12:47 PM)Laura C. Wrote:(10-23-2014, 01:51 AM)Chrystoph Wrote:(10-22-2014, 03:26 PM)Laura C. Wrote: This is RPG game. And every RPG game must find balance between " this make sense" on one side and "this doesn´t harm the gameplay much" on the other side. Unrestricted jump trading made more harm than good to gameplay because in majority of cases it reduced interaction between traders and pirates/unlawfuls because traders instead of going through several systems were jumping to and back between two or three systems (and very often even off the plane to do maximum to avoid any interaction).
Interaction between traders and pirates is one of the key parts of server ingame life cycle so it needs to be protected.
I would REALLY like some one to explain to me how a single stranger demanding, "Gimme (money/cargo) or die!" then flying off is RP while spending time with a group of friends setting up a trading event is not.
"Legitimate traders avoiding pirates is bad for the server, so the pirates need to be given artificial advantages." Is that an accurate paraphrase of the above? Just making sure I understood what you are saying. If so, would you PLEASE explain to me what the benefit of piracy is to the server? The SERVER, ergo the community, not the individual.
Don´t forget that jumptrading exists for limited time. It was not in game all the time, it was added. So in fact it was traders who got "artificial advantage" when jumping was introduced and restricting the jumping now just return server closer to the previous state.
I think that Garrett already explained it. Moving traders are fuel for pirates and unlawfuls in general. And this is then fuel for lawfuls (except wars which are fuel for militaries). Less encounters for unlawfuls means less fun and less people playing. Less unlawfuls means less encounters for lawfuls and this again means less fun and less people playing.
Jumping was interesting idea. There were groups, which were doing it and included lot of RP ingame and even on forums. Unfortunately, another lot of people are doing simple "secretly load, jump and secretly sell, repeat until you are very rich". There was lot of abusing of IDs and lot of actions didn´t make any sense inRP. Too much players started to see jumptrading as easy way for making huge amount of money (especially with barges) without any consideration what their actions means.
Jumping without any restrictions and rules was same like PoBs building without restrictions and rules. It created too much harm over good when some people changed idea made with good intentions into bad use. Some change was needed in my opinion.
(10-23-2014, 09:25 AM)larzac Wrote: Yeah sure, it was killing activity for others (ironic mod activated).
Now everyone is equal, it kills activity for everyone, like this, everyone is happy.
I see you coming saying: bla bla you are part of congress bla bla jump trader bla bla.
you should know that i never jumped except once in rheinland (maybe not the good timezone help) but what i see is that since jump has been remove, look at faction activity. And not only congress activity, ALL factions.
Except [FL-ER], every faction lost activity time since the begining of the test. It could be a coincidence, but i think you arent fool enough to believe that. Everyone can do mistakes, even our dearly admins and devs, and it's normal you are human (even if jens is maybe a reborn tractor...) but the problem isnt to do mistake, the problem is when you dont fix them. Now, look at the result of this test and think to his result. And please, stop to listen to people who moan more than they play (today i am probably part of them, but it's just today i promise
Come on, this is way way big generalization. Every faction lost activity? Well, RFP which I know very well didn´t. OSI wich was almost dead went up in last three weeks, same goes for VWA. And very likely there are some others which I didn´t notice. Please stay reasonable and don´t misinterpret facts.
And generally, how can unlawful factions, police factions and even military faction be affected by restriction of jump trading? You are here long enough to know that every September and October activity goes down becase school and later university start so players have less time to play. So no, less activity is not caused only by jump trading restriction. There may be some influence, but I doubt it´s major one, especially for non-trading factions.
I know that .j. (mentioning it as number one of activity list and because you are in it, no attack or flame intented) lost like ten or even fifteen days of activity. I don´t know how much you were using jumping so how much your faction activity was influenced by restriction. But another junkers JM- lost few days too and I´m not aware they were using jump trading so I doubt it´s caused by the restriction trial period. Same goes for GMG or Ageira or IMG (which is the famous one for staying with "old-fashioned" convoys instead of jumptrading, despite they have resources, ships and players to do so). And I can go on.
I simply doubt that jump trading restriction (and it´s even only restriction, not complete remove) can really significantly affect server activity. If there are players who do jump trading majority of their playing time and will leave if they can´t continue because they refuse traditional trading, then I´m not sure what to say about it. Jump trading was never intented to be main activity which should replace "old-fashioned" roaming in the trade lanes.
OSI- 2.09:42:09
RFP 2.03:10:12
VWA 03:11:05
Please, dont insult me. It's nice to see this faction more active, but that's still very low numbers. And when you look in details, it's only 2 or 3 active members. Maybe september and october has an impact, but when the test started, all top five active faction was at +10 days (sorry i didnt take a screen but i remember this quite well), Congress was at 40 days and JM was nearly 15 days. So, as you said, September/october has maybe an impact, but we were already in this period 2 weeks ago... So your argument is a little irrelevant. You say that you doubt that jump trading restriction significantly affect server activity, it does, as numbers show it. I dont shout: look it's kills activity or something of this kind as some people do, i bring elements of proofs. A lot of indies were just playing together to jump. Yes, maybe it doesnt create a lot of interaction with others, but in what it hurts you? This indies wont use trade lanes, so it's just player lost who has probably left the server. I didnt do congress jump who was at 5 am in my timezone, but i know that since the restriction began, this players dont log anymore (as numbers show). And remember that some players had fun to hunt this jumpers, players who hasnt this reason to loganymore (Yes, probably distorted argument but still one
) What i try to do is to spotlight elements that since the restriction began, WE lost a lot of activity, nothing else. After anyway, it will always be admins/dev choice and we cant do something against that.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Laura C. - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 02:23 PM)larzac Wrote: OSI- 2.09:42:09
RFP 2.03:10:12
VWA 03:11:05
Please, dont insult me. It's nice to see this faction more active, but that's still very low numbers. And when you look in details, it's only 2 or 3 active members. Maybe september and october has an impact, but when the test started, all top five active faction was at +10 days (sorry i didnt take a screen but i remember this quite well), Congress was at 40 days and JM was nearly 15 days. So, as you said, September/october has maybe an impact, but we were already in this period 2 weeks ago... So your argument is a little irrelevant. You say that you doubt that jump trading restriction significantly affect server activity, it does, as numbers show it. I dont shout: look it's kills activity or something of this kind as some people do, i bring elements of proofs. A lot of indies were just playing together to jump. Yes, maybe it doesnt create a lot of interaction with others, but in what it hurts you? This indies wont use trade lanes, so it's just player lost who has probably left the server. I didnt do congress jump who was at 5 am in my timezone, but i know that since the restriction began, this players dont log anymore (as numbers show). And remember that some players had fun to hunt this jumpers, players who hasnt this reason to loganymore (Yes, probably distorted argument but still one
There are small factions and big factions, small factions have less activity time. My only point was to show that your words about "all factions lost activity" were simply wrong, nothing more.
Also don´t forget that activity tracker has a month delay. So if faction made lot of activity in April and less on September, the tracker will significantly go down in the second part of September and beginning of October when all April numbers disappear. So those high numbers you mention were simply created in the second half of April and beginning of September and stayed there until beginning of October (when restriction trial period began). Also, you speak about indies, but we don´t have any data about them.
By the way, you still didn´t explain me how can jumping restriction affect non-trading factions and how can cause their activity numbers to go down.
Last thing, you are speaking about players who were secretly jumping and if they can´t they will trade outside lanes or leave completely. I may be a little harsh, but is that really damage if we lose players which put all their effort to avoid any interaction? Because I will very likely almost never meet these players anyway so I actually can´t recognize the difference when they play and when they don´t. On the other hand some jumpers will return to traditional trading so it can create more interactions then.
Hunting jumptraders was incredibly hard (and actually almost impossible without at least some slice of metagaming) so people quickly got bored from trying it. I actually tried myself so I know it. Same as I know that if you by accident were able to catch them, you usually got lot of complaining because they were upset that somebody found them and is "stupidly destroying game for them" to quote one of them.
I assume that .j. was hit by the restriction probably the most so you have reason to fight against it. But it is still hard to understand for me that players will rather stop playing than simply start common trading again what were players doing here for years. Maybe I´m about getting old and too old-fashioned. But I still keep my opinion that jumping restriction was good decision which will bring more good than harm.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - larzac - 10-23-2014
Well, future has the answer, but at least you wont be able to say that you havent been prevented.
ps: It's august not april, and it started at the beginning of October so still an irrelevant argument like still in September-October period.
RE: Rational Jump Trade - Gypsie Skripto - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 02:50 AM)Garrett Jax Wrote: There are more factions on this server than just trading factions. We have military, unlawful, bounty hunters, nomads, infected and others. Jumping from one point to another robs each and every one of these factions the opportunity to interact with you.
The excitement and thrill of this game is the fact that you have to wade through several possible encounters in order to reach your destination. By allowing jump trading to exist, traders get to skip all this, jumping straight to their destination, robbing themselves and others of any potential encounter at all.
This lack of interaction kills activity for others and is ultimately self defeating for everyone.
I get your point, and given my position and yours I won't even try to argue that. Yet, I'd like us all to focus on the original proposition within the OP. Make Freighters and Gunboats dockable in heavy docking modules (make such modules available in factories) so they can jump even in an Mk III JD Capital Ship. This way it wouldnt make it profitable, and it would still give another legit use to jumpdrives other than gankspam (which may be a rich activity fueler but it's not the strongest leg RP has in this server).