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+--- Thread: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict (/showthread.php?tid=122070)
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Fluffyball - 10-25-2014
The major problem with Rheinland and Liberty is that, logically, neither side (according to their resources) is factualy able to have the upper hand. As I mentioned before: we either make a ceasefire (at some time), but allow covert operations in Hampshire between Liberty and Rheinland.
Or, as some of you want to do, let Kusari join against Liberty. But in this scenario, Liberty and Bretonia don't have the upper hand it would be Liberty who loose Colorado (mixed Gallic-Kusari fleet) and Texas - from tactical and economical point of view, because 1) Liberty Navy is even more spead around, 2) H-Fuel flow is smaller, 3) Rheinland and Bretonia eventually WILL BE FORCED to declare war on each other. What kind of ally it is that doesn't help you in war?
In short, as MANY TIMES I POINTED OUT, closing Kusari border means hard time for both Bretonia and Liberty, because neither of them is able to produce H-Fuel. GC and Junkers are not able to supply two fleets of two houses with that. But if the situation would go more worse and worse for Liberty, at some point gray Libertonians would finally snap and hang president with entire cabinet, enforcing new government that would make peace with Rheinland.
And the final thing that annoys me. Liberty shouldn't be powerful. It should be minimally, but still, economically impacted nation, because it lost one client. It is not a big producer. This is a industry based onto IMPORTED GOODS. Rheinland and Kusari don't need Liberty nowadays. But Liberty needs at least Kusari.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Wildkins - 10-25-2014
(10-25-2014, 11:55 AM)Toji-Haku Wrote: The major problem with Rheinland and Liberty is that, logically, neither side (according to their resources) is factualy able to have the upper hand. As I mentioned before: we either make a ceasefire (at some time), but allow covert operations in Hampshire between Liberty and Rheinland.
Or, as some of you want to do, let Kusari join against Liberty. But in this scenario, Liberty and Bretonia don't have the upper hand it would be Liberty who loose Colorado (mixed Gallic-Kusari fleet) and Texas - from tactical and economical point of view, because 1) Liberty Navy is even more spead around, 2) H-Fuel flow is smaller, 3) Rheinland and Bretonia eventually WILL BE FORCED to declare war on each other.
In short, as MANY TIMES I POINTED OUT, closing Kusari border means hard time for both Bretonia and Liberty, because neither of them is able to produce H-Fuel. GC and Junkers are not able to supply two fleets of two houses with that. But if the situation would go more worse and worse Liberty and its citizens, at some point Libertonians would finally snap and hang president with entire cabinet, enforcing new government that would make peace with Rheinland.
And the final thing that annoys me. Liberty shouldn't be powerful. It should be minimally, but still, economically impacted nation, because it lost one client. It is not a big producer. This is a industry based onto IMPORTED GOODS. Rheinland and Kusari don't need Liberty nowadays. But Liberty needs at least Kusari.
Except, if I'm not mistaken, Kusari-Liberty relations have gotten better, not worse, especially with the ending of the H-fuel Embargo and all of that a few months back. And you are correct that Liberty is primarily based on trade, but it still produces many goods of its own.
Also, I think the best way to deal with this both in and out of roleplay is to end the Lib-Rheinland war and find new, large-scale conflicts for both houses. The game needs development, new story, new lore, and it hasn't gotten that - it's become stale, old, and uninspiring. A progressive storyline with ever-changing diplomacy and roleplay is much more interesting than the gridlock we've been experiencing these last few years.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Shizune - 10-26-2014
(10-25-2014, 11:59 AM)John Wildkins Wrote:(10-25-2014, 11:55 AM)Toji-Haku Wrote: The major problem with Rheinland and Liberty is that, logically, neither side (according to their resources) is factualy able to have the upper hand. As I mentioned before: we either make a ceasefire (at some time), but allow covert operations in Hampshire between Liberty and Rheinland.
Or, as some of you want to do, let Kusari join against Liberty. But in this scenario, Liberty and Bretonia don't have the upper hand it would be Liberty who loose Colorado (mixed Gallic-Kusari fleet) and Texas - from tactical and economical point of view, because 1) Liberty Navy is even more spead around, 2) H-Fuel flow is smaller, 3) Rheinland and Bretonia eventually WILL BE FORCED to declare war on each other.
In short, as MANY TIMES I POINTED OUT, closing Kusari border means hard time for both Bretonia and Liberty, because neither of them is able to produce H-Fuel. GC and Junkers are not able to supply two fleets of two houses with that. But if the situation would go more worse and worse Liberty and its citizens, at some point Libertonians would finally snap and hang president with entire cabinet, enforcing new government that would make peace with Rheinland.
And the final thing that annoys me. Liberty shouldn't be powerful. It should be minimally, but still, economically impacted nation, because it lost one client. It is not a big producer. This is a industry based onto IMPORTED GOODS. Rheinland and Kusari don't need Liberty nowadays. But Liberty needs at least Kusari.
Except, if I'm not mistaken, Kusari-Liberty relations have gotten better, not worse, especially with the ending of the H-fuel Embargo and all of that a few months back. And you are correct that Liberty is primarily based on trade, but it still produces many goods of its own.
Also, I think the best way to deal with this both in and out of roleplay is to end the Lib-Rheinland war and find new, large-scale conflicts for both houses. The game needs development, new story, new lore, and it hasn't gotten that - it's become stale, old, and uninspiring. A progressive storyline with ever-changing diplomacy and roleplay is much more interesting than the gridlock we've been experiencing these last few years.
We can't forget that Liberty is the bed home for
Lawful:
DSE: The inventors of trade lanes and jump gates (besides nomads), this means they get all the funding for the Gates and Lanes to build them in all houses and maintain them.
Ageria: Weapon smith's with access to much more then just normal weapons and who build most, if not all of the lawful weapons
USI: One of the largest trading corp's in all of discovery (and employers of Xeno's) who have 3-4 PoB's and enough funding themselves to stay alive
IC: Sirius's bank and loan people, I mean there's a huge chunk of money for Liberty right there
IND (only due to their funding): I mean really, these guy's pay for tons of stuff in Liberty and help them stay alive when they want
LPI: A Police force funded by the richest faction in game, IND
LN: A faction with access to nomadic research (check Alaska and the research station in Virginia) and lets not forget they were the one's who managed to get a ceasefire from the Order
LSF: A faction who rivaled many intelligence forces and has access to plenty of people. Also these guys have some tech that rivals plenty of people
And plenty of indies that have access to their own ways of funding and processing of ships. I don't see many, if any independent active RM factions.
Unlawfuls:
LR: I mean, while they don't help Liberty, they do have a major foot hold in Liberty with the trade to others and plenty of back door deals
LH: Not much to say that has not been see, these guys get the job done and the funding to do it as well
XA: Ex-miners of Liberty who still mine their own stuff still and attack in just fighters and bombers.
PLR: I mean, the guy's have a liberty dreadnought that they use, not many can say they have the funding for such a small group to do such
And plenty of indies and indy factions.
I mean when it comes down to it, while Liberty may be..whatever, they have justifiable funding and access to area's full of resources and cargo and equipment completely unknown to the public eye. Not to mention they have whole armies against them and they still stand strong with their funding.
I hate to say it, but the Rheinlanders have run themselves into the ground. First they lost their mining system Dresden to Hessian's, they have not much of a fleet left (Not player wise) and they were the ones who destroyed the gates. Not to mention they still push all their remaining funding to their active lawfuls and corporations. Rheinland also has very few allies and lets face it, their far from their allies like Kusari and Gallia, like, other side of Sirius.
More over, Rheinland has been hammered hard by nomadic incursions over the last few years and are surrounded by enemies:
Corsairs from below attacking their Omega miners, Outcasts pushing through the Sigma's, Hessian's starting to body slam Rheinland from Dresden and other ways. LWB covertly taking Rheinland apart from the inside out. Unioner's assaulting Stuttgart and surrounding systems, Liberty from the jump holes leading to Hamburg. Das Wilde from the open Omega systems.
But lets face it, perhaps ending the war will help them both out because each have something the other does not.
Liberty has funding in many ways but no resources (much left)
Rheinland has a stockpile of resources around them in all directions (including their home system had resources inside its fields
Liberty has a war machine, Rheinland needs support against Hessian's and all other of their unlawfuls.
Rheinland has master covert agents, heck the LSF could use some help perhaps (maybe)
Liberty has stock piled resources to back them up and to trade openly (they are the center of Sirius after all)
Rheinland needs stuff, being blunt about it.
Liberty's fleet independents need some training on how to fight (LNS wise, yes, I won't be nice about that, its true and we know it)
Rheinlands current standing fleet has the skill the fend off a LN/LNS attack with just a few ship's without really trying
And more over, where is the current war standing going to really go? Gallia really can't back up Rheinland for being so far away anyways and their fleet is dwindling in size each month as people lose hope (inRP) of Rheinland standing much longer. And if Liberty keeps up, their going to destroy Rheinland in the end and most of everything usable anyways
Does anyone even remember why it started anyways? I kinda do, it was simple I believe...BDM finds LSF researching on Nomad stuff in Alaska, RM sends a covert fleet in to destroy that area fearing it was infected, LN+LSF find this and retaliate by destroying the attack in Alaska (once they got there), RM sends a message to Liberty to stop researching on nomadic stuff and Liberty just flips Rheinland off basically saying "come at me bro" and that's what Rheinland did. If I'm wrong, someone correct me but I believe its close to that. I mean the war escalated quickly into each hating each other because they were attacking each other.
Honestly, it should end. It opens the door to much more diplomatic RP (or more smuggling and stuff from the unlawful's side)
Quote:Or, as some of you want to do, let Kusari join against Liberty. But in this scenario, Liberty and Bretonia don't have the upper hand it would be Liberty who loose Colorado (mixed Gallic-Kusari fleet) and Texas
2 months ago, I saw 4 LSF Primary GB's kill 3 KNF prims, 1 KNF indy CAU 8 BS and 1 battlecruiser without losing a single person. Kusari joins the hostilities against Liberty, lets be far, they would get crushed if the civil war goes through as the goverment could not stand a 5 way crushing war against 5 parties. And also, what KNF fleet? They have the Blood Dragons, The GC (sister's guild), The FA, Order, Aoi Isijien, Exiles, Council, UC, Junkers, JM, Corsair's (some still don't like Kusari), Outcast's, the nomads from Tohoku, LR & PLR, Xeno's, the Bretoina Privateers, and Rheinlands unlawfuls in the Sigma's. If that civil war goes through, Kusari won't matter anymore the BHGC were kicked out,
Quote: from tactical and economical point of view, because 1) Liberty Navy is even more spead around, 2) H-Fuel flow is smaller, 3) Rheinland and Bretonia eventually WILL BE FORCED to declare war on each other.
The LN is also the largest SIRIUS army around as well.
Also some LN/LNS/LSF/LSFC ships don't even run off H-Fuel, some go off fusion, anti-matter, air and tons of other stuff as well.
And Rheinland and Bretonia declaring war again on each other, this already happened and ended with each other in a stalemate because both nations armies were not counterable in combat and neither pushed pass the Omega barrier
Quote:And the final thing that annoys me. Liberty shouldn't be powerful. It should be minimally, but still, economically impacted nation, because it lost one client. It is not a big producer. This is a industry based onto IMPORTED GOODS. Rheinland and Kusari don't need Liberty nowadays. But Liberty needs at least Kusari.
You seem to forget however the Kusari does not control the H-Fuel trade, GMG is the biggest around and officially their not part of Kusari. Samura and Kishiro have their own kind yes but their's could not even fuel a small army in which case GMG steps in with their massive supply of it. Kusari does not control GMG's trade either, Kusari declares war on Liberty and cuts off H-Fuel trade? good for them, GMG will just jump trade, go around or use covert operations to get the fuel through or let their allies do it as well such as Zoner's
Quote:Also, I think the best way to deal with this both in and out of roleplay is to end the Lib-Rheinland war and find new, large-scale conflicts for both houses. The game needs development, new story, new lore, and it hasn't gotten that - it's become stale, old, and uninspiring. A progressive storyline with ever-changing diplomacy and roleplay is much more interesting than the gridlock we've been experiencing these last few years.
This I can agree to as said above already.
Lets put it like this in strengths
Gallia is the top dog, they got limitless man power, infinite supplies and funding, an organized army and a well operated corporate workshop
Next is Liberty, they have funding, stockpiled resources, research and plenty of man power but not that much of an organized army but a well backed corporate machine. They also got many contacts they can call upon for support
After that is Rheinland, they may have not got much but damn can they stand strong with what they have. Shooting a Rheinlander between the eyes is like a badge of honor for some because their just that hard to kill and stop. They got a well organized but small military and a large corporate machine which is backed by other corporation's
Then Kusari, while they may seem fine now, we all can not deny their going to come crashing down soon and hard with all that's going on. However; that does not stop their military force, which while organized and strong, has many deserters who go to the Dragons or GC. But the kicker? Their corporations run the governmental emperor means they can just get a new one if they need to.
Lastly, and sorry is Bretoina. Their resources, while stockpiled for now, can't last forever, they got to wage war's on several front's as well including against the top dog Gallia who has untold forces to call upon to attack the weak house.
But this is just me.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - SnakThree - 10-26-2014
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: DSE: The inventors of trade lanes and jump gates (besides nomads), this means they get all the funding for the Gates and Lanes to build them in all houses and maintain them.
Deep Space Engineer is manufacturers and miners by default. They only assemble Jump Gates and Trade Lanes from parts, shipped by Universal Shipping and manufactured by Ageira Technologies.
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: Ageria: Weapon smith's with access to much more then just normal weapons and who build most, if not all of the lawful weapons
Ageira is the developers of Jump Gates, Trade Lane and Docking Rings as well as founder of most famous Detroit Munitions.
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: USI: One of the largest trading corp's in all of discovery (and employers of Xeno's) who have 3-4 PoB's and enough funding themselves to stay alive
Universal Shipping might be the most richest shipping company, but Xeno ralationship and PoBs account for nothing.
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: IC: Sirius's bank and loan people, I mean there's a huge chunk of money for Liberty right there
Interspace prowess in financial is surely legendary feat.
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: IND (only due to their funding): I mean really, these guy's pay for tons of stuff in Liberty and help them stay alive when they want
IND is not Libertonian faction. And since it is mostly admin-created faction, I doubt it has much impact on general universe.
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: LPI: A Police force funded by the richest faction in game, IND
IND cannot be the richest faction, that is obviously IC. Nor does it matter who owns the most corrupt organisation in the game.
Since I do take interest in corporate affairs of Liberty due to being Hacker and Ageira go-to-guy, I thought I could give a bit of more accurate description
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Echo 7-7 - 10-26-2014
(10-26-2014, 01:03 AM)Shizune Wrote: ...
Does anyone even remember why it started anyways? I kinda do, it was simple I believe...BDM finds LSF researching on Nomad stuff in Alaska, RM sends a covert fleet in to destroy that area fearing it was infected, LN+LSF find this and retaliate by destroying the attack in Alaska (once they got there), RM sends a message to Liberty to stop researching on nomadic stuff and Liberty just flips Rheinland off basically saying "come at me bro" and that's what Rheinland did. If I'm wrong, someone correct me but I believe its close to that. I mean the war escalated quickly into each hating each other because they were attacking each other.
...
Reverse every system and faction reference in that paragraph and you'll have it correct.
PS. If you're going to start measuring up canonical strengths between the Houses, it's generally a good idea to leave out the player factions.
Snak3 Wrote:Ageira go-to-guy
You merely adopted Ageira. I was born in it. Molded by it.
On topic: It looks like this thread has mostly run its course. Gameplay arguments have been made for and against, but the pro-continuation side doesn't appear to have been able to counter the suggestion that activity can be created in and around Rheinland by encouraging Hessian-RM and Corsair-RM conflicts.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Techpriest - 10-26-2014
Quote:We can't forget that Liberty is the bed home for
Says nothing about Cryer Pharmaceutical.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Player - 10-26-2014
I think, peoples have own personal interests & choose own way to play. And we can see - near 10th players is completely like this permanent event.
Developers blocked that fun (look at new way to Texasburg from Hamburg), but gamers, contrary to this, fly & fight.
Next - server have real problem: low online activity and, if we want to increase on-line activity, then we must respect the choice of on-line players.
P.S.: game for the players, not the players for the game.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Fluffyball - 10-26-2014
Quote:You seem to forget however the Kusari does not control the H-Fuel trade, GMG is the biggest around and officially their not part of Kusari. Samura and Kishiro have their own kind yes but their's could not even fuel a small army in which case GMG steps in with their massive supply of it. Kusari does not control GMG's trade either, Kusari declares war on Liberty and cuts off H-Fuel trade? good for them, GMG will just jump trade, go around or use covert operations to get the fuel through or let their allies do it as well such as Zoner's
No matter that Kusari doesn't have any influence on that. But H-Fuel would go to Liberty only through Kusari (possible) or Rheinland (impossible for now). This is what I wanted to show here. Kusari would force GMG to not to trade with Liberty. And if Zoners tried to move H-Fuel through Kusari to Liberty (if there was war), it would be suspicious and, neutral or not, Kusari would force Zoners to drop their cargo, pay fine - or simply kill them. Law is law, your neutrality doesn't allow you to break it. Don't forget that Kusari became a Police Nation, not a true democracy as we know, I mean, that's as far as I see it, because I don't believe Kusari would need secret police if they were truly democratic (what is funny now, because majority in the current elections is pro-Imperial).
But tradejump is a good idea, I must say. Nonetheless, we would look forward to the changes that devs are planning.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Ryummel - 10-26-2014
Haven't seen anybody mentioning that Hessians are sandwiched between Corsairs and Rheinland yet.
RE: End of the Liberty-Rheinland conflict - Daumann Heavy Construction - 10-26-2014
(10-26-2014, 12:43 PM)Ryummel Wrote: Haven't seen anybody mentioning that Hessians are sandwiched between Corsairs and Rheinland yet.
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