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+--- Thread: Jumping out of combat... (/showthread.php?tid=123727)
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Black Widow - 12-16-2014
Just because bot feeding from jump ships is a possibility doesn't mean remove jump drives that's a ridiculous and radicle move.
If there is a particular abuse of bot feeding via jumpships then fine neuter it but I have not seen this.
Being all anti jumpship because you might see botfeeders is also a debunked standpoint.
We are using what-if scenarios here to try justify neutering a very fun part of the game. The OP was not crying about bot feeding they were upset at the ease with which jumper could leave battle and return later.
Personal experiences > opinions I think
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Lythrilux - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 04:03 PM)Black Widow Wrote: Just because bot feeding from jump ships is a possibility doesn't mean remove jump drives that's a ridiculous and radicle move.If it's part of the problem, remove the problem. I don't see the issue
(12-16-2014, 04:03 PM)Black Widow Wrote: Being all anti jumpship because you might see botfeeders is also a debunked standpoint.I explained my point, I'd like to see you justify your counter argument instead of throwing in a counter-opinion with no substance.
(12-16-2014, 04:03 PM)Black Widow Wrote: We are using what-if scenarios here to try justify neutering a very fun part of the game.>very fun part of the game
Are you serious? Of course, we know that you have a jumping capital ship and do use this mechanic as you have admitted. Clearly you're already heavily biased to be for this mechanic because you find joy out of using it. I really liked Spazzy's point about counter-balance, because that's exactly what we need here. This jumping mechanic is only fun for the person doing it, not the people that person is doing it against. Like, have you ever been in a group chat with people who are shooting one of these things? The anger is easy to be seen.
I'm not surprised that you'd find joy out of such mechanics anyway, Mister Full-Flak Bretonian Battleship that merrily charges into snub brawls.
(12-16-2014, 04:03 PM)Black Widow Wrote: The OP was not crying about bot feeding they were upset at the ease with which jumper could leave battle and return later.It falls under the problem of jumping caps.
Your argument is like saying "I've never been a witness to a crime, therefore crime never happens".
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Sciamach - 12-16-2014
Quote:
Your argument is like saying "I've never been a witness to a crime, therefore crime never happens
I just woke up and have been reading through all the new posts since I passed out
This quote basically personifies the posts of everyone that clicked "No" in the poll
Either that or something to the effect of "get good at killing something with more hull than can feasibly be burned down in 30 seconds" which is also a completely invalid arguement.
I'd also like to point out this: there are a number of people, myself included, that don't bother to log for these pews in texas much anymore simply because of this jump bullshit. We don't want to bother with the jumping/botfeeding/re-engaging nimrods constantly who use a loophole to win at fights instrad of actual skill.
why should I bother logging if half of what I'm going to be fighting is just going to magically disappear for 2 minutes and come back fully restored. It isnt fun, and its become a legitimate issue.
make it coumt as a PVP death, or give us a way to interrupt jumps already because whats going now is not working, and really isnt healthy for the server.
One more thing:
Yes. Yes it is will
RE: Jumping out of combat... - t0l - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 04:03 PM)Black Widow Wrote: Just because bot feeding from jump ships is a possibility doesn't mean remove jump drives that's a ridiculous and radicle move.
If there is a particular abuse of bot feeding via jumpships then fine neuter it but I have not seen this.
Being all anti jumpship because you might see botfeeders is also a debunked standpoint.
We are using what-if scenarios here to try justify neutering a very fun part of the game. The OP was not crying about bot feeding they were upset at the ease with which jumper could leave battle and return later.
Personal experiences > opinions I think
Haste stole my milk. I think he's a bad person and should be banned. Someone else thinks he's an upstanding member of the community because of his balance work and doesn't want him banned. Because I have personal experiences with Haste, it's more important than someone else's opinion and Haste is banned and unable to work on the mod.
No one ever said we were removing JDs. We're just making it an entry tool and one-time exit tool so you don't repeat the process and continuously waste everyone's time because you want your ego to remain overinflated.
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Texas Red - 12-16-2014
Jumping out of a fight is lame and should count as PvP death because while you might enjoy it, those on the other end of the screen do not. Accounting for your own personal opinion rather than even hearing other people out on it is bias as all hell, BW. I don't even bother shooting at Caps with a JD, because I know they're just going to disappear and come back, wasting the last 30 minutes I spent spewing SNAC's at it. "Lololol i'll just come back its ok" isn't even valid reasoning. While yes, you're giving the other people a second chance, you're wasting their time. Nobody likes wasted time.
You also have to account for some ships that do jump out of a fight to restock with another cap, that said cap it was fighting might not have a place to dock and restock like you do, thus making the fight one-sided and rediculously long and boring, and no one wants to deal with that anymore. I approve of using Jumpdrives to escape combat counting as PvP death. If you don't like that and want to quit the server because of a simple mechanic change that would fix a situation that is harmful to server gameplay, as people have admitted (Not logging in to deal with your Elbe), then that's fine. There's an "X" at the top right of your screen.
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Highland Laddie - 12-16-2014
Quote:They need a rework anyway. The idea that military-grade jump drives are used to jump things OUT of combat, rather than INTO it, is pants-on-head retarded.A small counter point to this statement: I don't really understand how this is "retarded" unless your understanding is that tactical retreating never takes place...which means you are simply never used to losing (which DOES harken back to the idea that this whole thread is one big whine session because you can't kill a jumper before he escapes), or you simply have no real understanding of military strategy (sure....."fight to the death!" may make great sense in an OORP space sim, but jumping out in retreat actually makes complete and logical sense inRP if you know you are losing and actually wanted to survive).
Instead of making a jump interruptible via CDing (which Spazzy already noted could turn into a MAJOR troll fest), I'd rather like to see a specific weapon/equipment developed (or maybe even built via PoBs) that can interrupt or even disable them, either like an anti-jump Torpedo/Missle used by Bombers or Cruisers, or even like the gravity well from the Star Wars universe.
This way, you would have to specifically dedicate some part of your arsenal to disrupting jumps (and thereby sacrifice either a weapon slot or an equipment slot, which makes it balanced), instead of already taking advantage of CDs, which nearly all ships can carry in massive amounts.
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Binski - 12-16-2014
Both with cloaks and JD's, you pay for their usage, and their abilities. Not every cloak or JD is good to escape with either, it takes a certain kind of situation where it can be used properly. I've seen ships jump in and out of battle, and think its an excellent use of the tech. Not sure what exact situation you may refer to, but something like RN caps refueling off Beaumont to continuously attack over and over and jump out again, the problem lies with not catching them refueling.
Also it seems the value of these devices should go up with time, instead they go down as more wind up on the market, as old ones settle with players that keep them, new ones must be generated, and some get passed around. Kill the construction of these things, and raise the prices, dump them on NPC bases. People will still have to grind a little to get them, but can go back to trading, instead of supplying, which can make people a little too driven on the goal.
THe rules are just fine, regardless of 'bot feeding', which sounds like a well organized supply line to me. Thats an INRP problem. Sounds like the complaining side needs more guys, not changed rules.
And OP ship repair times? Ever heard of nanobotts? A mass of nanites rushing out into a hull breach or removed component, repairing and replacing the lost parts by taking their shape and construction instantly...that we all use on all of our ships to repair IN SPACE (which is either OP altogether, or we defer to the technology), its like if we all had a T-1000 on our ship, and instead of it being a terminator, he can chuck off bits of himself to fill any holes or repair ship parts. Liquid metal, a mass of nanites, its the same thing. So if this can be done in space, I suppose a fast repair job can be done too.
Problem #1 with not using JD's to 'jump into combat' is the obvious requirement for coordinates. How are the RN ships supposed to go scan for coords to ambush later, hire someone with a military grade ship to do the scanning for them? Like who? Zoners??? The only coords people can usually get that they know are useful and safe are return coords. Making it easy to jump OUT of battle, and not so easy to jump in. I always wondered about the need to scan for coords on a separate ship. Its a needless break down of the process, turning even the simplest jump drive into a multi-person operation (or 1 person OP operation) just to use the darn thing. Not to mention they make it so you pretty much only get enough space for fuel for one jump, so who's gonna waste their only jump on a surprise attack, when tht can also be achieved conventionally, and the jump can be saved for an escape. Sounds like reasonable tactics to me.
(12-16-2014, 05:07 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: >very fun part of the gameThink of this. To get a JD3 to use on one of my caps, I paid 400 mil, most times yer looking at 500 mil. To use it, i had to buy another cap ship capable of using a hyperspace scanner, and the scanner itself. Another 600 million (and that was a great deal, was probably worth 800 mil, but got it from a friend who cut me a break).
Are you serious? Of course, we know that you have a jumping capital ship and do use this mechanic as you have admitted. Clearly you're already heavily biased to be for this mechanic because you find joy out of using it. I really liked Spazzy's point about counter-balance, because that's exactly what we need here. This jumping mechanic is only fun for the person doing it, not the people that person is doing it against. Like, have you ever been in a group chat with people who are shooting one of these things? The anger is easy to be seen.
I'm not surprised that you'd find joy out of such mechanics anyway, Mister Full-Flak Bretonian Battleship that merrily charges into snub brawls.
That's on average, a billion credits spent, every time a JD gets used, bare MINIMUM. Now I must ask, are you serious Lyth? Because I personally I'm tired of hearing players say 'what about all of us that don't use this, worry about OUR enjoyment!' and the other guys get buried by the whining, when an enormous amount of time and effort were put into that JD, and its usage. That effort pays for your escapes, its not cheap, or easily obtained. Sorry if all you folks in your little group rage over an escaped ship, but your need for the blue does not obligate someone to let themselves lose after spending a billion credits, directly or indirectly, on a jumpdrive that lets them beat you. I sometimes can't believe people, blue message addicts that get countless kills a week, claiming bounties all over the place, still raging when a ship jumps out (something that took countless hours to achieve!).
(12-16-2014, 05:33 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Instead of making a jump interruptible via CDing (which Spazzy already noted could turn into a MAJOR troll fest), I'd rather like to see a specific weapon/equipment developed (or maybe even built via PoBs) that can interrupt or even disable them, either like an anti-jump Torpedo/Missle used by Bombers or Cruisers, or even like the gravity well from the Star Wars universe.
This way, you would have to specifically dedicate some part of your arsenal to disrupting jumps (and thereby sacrifice either a weapon slot or an equipment slot, which makes it balanced), instead of already taking advantage of CDs, which nearly all ships can carry in massive amounts.
I've been playing the Freeworlds: Tides of War Star Wars conversion for the last week now, and they have actual 'Interdictor Cruisers' that are more than just in name, they can emit an artificial gravity well that shuts down all trade lanes in their reach (when active) and also prevents jumping inside the grav well. Sounds like disco could use a real interdictor, that actually does something like 'interdict' other ships, possible jumpers. I have no problem with people negating a JD, but not with a worthless CD that anyone can have, seems like a money sink should only be able to be countered with another money sink. All we need is a ship with the same abilities, highly valuable, and balance can finally be achieved. And now that I think about it, Disco could stand to learn quite a bit from the FWTOW mod.
RE: Jumping out of combat... - SnakeLancerHaven - 12-16-2014
Guys, please. This is almost the same thing with Ganks.
It's just an inRP interaction and inCombat / Battle situations. Keep this simply in your mind everytime someone jumps out "We'll get him next time, for sure!". Also, yes we were able to kill a Jumping Ship with A Cruiser and 3 Bombers, it is possible if you're quick enough to notice of course.
Tactics, Strategy for this you also need reaction/reflex, an overview of the situation, check out what's going on around you and yes, if you want him gone then focus on him first then the others.
The same also happened with Cloaks, please just carry on it isn't the end. In the end this probably we wont have anymore good stuff left.. 8/Ok, seriously. I know it's annoying but consider it as a victory, if the other jumps out, it's your Victory, YOU have won the Battle. Yes, he might jump back later on with full Nano/Bats, just ignore him for all I care, don't even get into an interaction if it realy bothers you much. If it doesn't, just get another wing of Bombers, or something bigger and destroy the hell out of that Vessel.
![[Image: emoticon-0157-sun.gif]](http://discoverygc.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticon-0157-sun.gif)
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Stoner_Steve - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 05:22 PM)Scourgeclaw Wrote: This quote basically personifies the posts of everyone that clicked "No" in the poll
I voted no because your entire argument is centered around a valid use of a Jump Drive, what is the point of owning one if you can't use it in a fight. But please generalize the entire thread because you are being disagreed with.
RE: Jumping out of combat... - Sciamach - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 05:41 PM)Captain_Nemo Wrote:(12-16-2014, 05:22 PM)Scourgeclaw Wrote: This quote basically personifies the posts of everyone that clicked "No" in the poll
I voted no because your entire argument is centered around a valid use of a Jump Drive, what is the point of owning one if you can't use it in a fight. But please generalize the entire thread because you are being disagreed with.
Valid use of a jump drive is to jump out of a fight, to this, I agree. Thats not my issue, my issue is returning to the fight afterwards. Its the same as docking, resupplying, and re-engaging.
Just like I don't care if a snub I'm chasing docks with a base
I don't care if you jump away. Its a perfectly valid tactic and use of the drive.
There is just no logical way you should be allowed to re-enter the fight, as the only way you're allowed to within the rules is quite literally a loophole.
And yes, I'll make such generalizations when they need to be made, as it has so far been proven right. My statement is not wrong.