+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery General (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+--- Thread: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? (/showthread.php?tid=128206)
Pages:
1
2
Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Fluffyball - 04-07-2015
The actual thing has been shortened by a pretty lot of paragraphs, which contained things that would not be understandable for the people who are not versed into Eastern Philosophy, Culture and would have no idea on how Sino-Japanese/(Neo-)Confucian-based society worked in these times.
I was wondering about that for a longer time. Kusari was, in vanillia, a strict feudal society, in which everyone had their place. Even though there was rivality between Kishiro and Samura, both equally respected the Imperial Court with Emperor himself, even if they did not like him.
In my opinion, and I know that change was made quite long time ago already, Constitutional Monarchy would make much more sense than actual Republic. Given the fact that Kusari was an Empire, with god-like Emperor figure who was object of the cult, the turnover into total Republic is a very brutal change. For over 800 years there was no single lack of Emperor in his throne - and we are here, totally different form of government, introduced out of nowhere.
KNF was an Imperial Fist, there's no wonder in that. So how come it, almost overnight, became the Republic - without many KNF officers objecting, because they were taught to serve Emperor and to be his Sword and Shield of Kusari? We, Western people, would not understand it if we are not aware on what Asian people (especially Japanese here, given the fact the vanillia Kusari is calque of the Post-Meiji Restoration period - with Blood Dragons being loyal to the Old Order) have in their minds and how they were raises, cultured and so on.
What few High Command (so coupers) did for Kusari and Emperor was worse than spitting at your own mother and calling her prostitute (with less fancy word used). That's because of the philosophy of the East, since Kusari is basically based onto Neo-Confucian form of the state, the society in Kusari in which everyone has their own place - this is why Hogosha is widely accepted in vanilia as they have "their own place in society".
In my humble opinion - on basis onto many books concerning Japan, Meiji and Edo Periods, additionally with several Confucian and Neo-Confucian titles - Kusari should not have had denounce Emperor, as such change would be too brutal for the society, what would lead to much more impactful internal distrust and hostility towards new government - in short, to calm down people, what would be already hard with no fleet and with limited resources after war.
I'd even point out the very short-lived (11 years old) period in which United Kingdom became a Republic, then it was replaced with Constitutional Monarchy - as the closest (for us, Europeans) example.
To sum up all what I wrote: Turning Kusari from Monarchy into full Republic was too brutal for the society that lived over 800 years in a strictly feudal society.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Highland Laddie - 04-07-2015
This ignores the historical fact that Japan has successfully involved into a Constitutional Republic today (in a span of what? 50 years since WWII) whereas Great Britain has remained a Constitutional Monarchy for a long while now.
This is also why there is an RP push to have Kusari descend into a civil war.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - t0l - 04-07-2015
Remember what happened in 1947?
It's practically the same thing here, although I don't believe Kusari has an Emperor anymore while actual Japan has one.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Fluffyball - 04-07-2015
(04-07-2015, 06:15 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: This ignores the historical fact that Japan has successfully involved into a Constitutional Republic today (in a span of what? 50 years since WWII) whereas Great Britain has remained a Constitutional Monarchy for a long while now.
This is also why there is an RP push to have Kusari descend into a civil war.
(04-07-2015, 06:18 PM)Tal Wrote: Remember what happened in 1947?
It's practically the same thing here, although I don't believe Kusari has an Emperor anymore while actual Japan has one.
I agree with both of you. However, it's more about denoucing Emperor - as I stated, it would make much more sense to install the puppet Emperor, what would assure people "down there" that everything is still in the order. Lack of such figure automatically makes people wondering what is wrong, eventually leading into distrust (up to the open hostility) to the new government. Yet the additional fact is we are speaking about culture, which is very unique and unbearable for the "normal" Westerner.
Turning into Republic from the Absolute Monarchy is pretty brutal. Especially in differently raised society.
Sorry for political allusion here, but I believe it was better for Chinese (raised from hundreds of years in Confucian-based sociery) to accept Chairman Mao replacing the former non-existant Chinese emperor at the time - rather than faceless group of guys who they don't even know.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Highland Laddie - 04-07-2015
Well, part of the reason Kusari when so fast from Monarchy to Republic stems from Kusari suffering a prolonged war with Bretonia, only to have their military practically destroyed overnight by Gallia, and the Emperor absent. This presented Kishiro, the more "westernized" faction within Kusari, with an opportunity to reshape the government to their liking, also from being backed by Gallia (which is the part that doesn't make sense to me...why a despotic absolute monarchy would overthrow another monarchy in order to create a puppet-state Republic rather than just conquering them outright).
But again...none of this has happened without consequence. Kusari is a powder-keg of dissent waiting to be unleashed.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - WesternPeregrine - 04-07-2015
What I perceived from vanilla Kusari:
A society with an emphasis on "tradition".
A society with gender equality issues (GC raison d'etre).
A society that tolerated anti-foreign sentiment (Hogosha status).
A society that had strong connections with agriculture, and enough numbers to promote it and aggressively defend it (Kyushu background, FA raison d'etre, samura involvement).
A house that prided on technological pioneers in Sirius in many fields (Samura, Kishiro), that were second only to the successes of Ageira and other lucky Liberty corporations.
A house where the keiretsu have considerable influence in economy, politics, and society manners.
A Navy that was recognized as fierce and with long traditions of loyalty, with equally loyal opponents in the Blood Dragons.
A somewhat "regulated" criminal underworld, divided between the GC and the Hogosha.
- A sparely touched political system, not elaborated in the vanilla intel, and a cloudy past of regime change. (Lord Hakkera, Prefect of Honshu anyone?)
-
What I perceived from Discovery (player made) Empire lore.
- A Naval Forces fanatically loyal to the Emperor, and by association every lawful character must be equally a drone to the Imperial Will. Everyone who thinks otherwise is a "filthy gaijin".
- People claiming that Kusari is a "feudal" house, but then supporting the concept of a absolute monarchy supported by an Samura clique.
- Kishiro is the underdog, who somehow foments a more progressive way (that no one in Kusari wants?).
- A "zelous" emperor (pun intended), with is navy of zelots, decides that waging a war across the Taus against another house (something that in vanilla never occurred until the Nomad War) is the the most manly thing to do. No one complains against that.
- Players adopt the "imperialist Japan" for their roleplay, exacerbating
the stereotypes, and assuming that it's part of the original Kusari.
What I perceived from Discovery (player made) Republican lore.
- Suddenly, Kishiro progressive ideals were adopted by a large part of the KNF reserves, who decide to do an instantaneous coup.
- The soon to be Exiles, faced with a stronger enemy, do a volte face, and find allies in their 5 minutes earlier enemies. The rest of the Kusari get split reactions regarding the new relations with Bretonia.
- Some people try to implement a new modus operandi for Kusari roleplay, while at the same time accommodating the old timers (imperialists, anti gaijin rp), but not touching upon other vital cores of the roleplay (GC status, BD raison d'etre).
-----------------
I believe that Kusari roleplay is (and will ever be) stained by shallow stereotypes, stereotypes that players bring into Discovery, after some light research on the topics of "What a fictional futuristic retro Japan should be".
Kusari suffers not because of the stereotypes, or the conflicting views of what should or what should not be. I think many people have voiced the idea that Kusari was changed according to a plan, but then that plan was dropped. We were left with a direction-less Kusari, with stagnated progression everywhere.
Right now, I can't decide if a "Samura urges the parliament to make a constitutional monarchy", a "3 way military conflict between the forces of Ksuari (not a civil war, in a sense)", or a "Gallia annex, Ksuari protectorate)" options are good, or acceptable to anyone at all...
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Yaoquizque - 04-07-2015
Pere wins the thread as always.
That said, you can rationalize all you want, things will still be the way they are not because of previous lore, but because of some guy who used to be Kishiro leader and Dev at the same time, and who thought that Republic thing would be pretty fun.
Kusari factions could only acknowledge that change and were thus forced to bend their faction lore accordingly. That is why you have a KNF that turned overnight from Samura backed Emperors private army to Republican armed forces.
Lastly, I don't think Kusari EQUALS Japan. Perhaps basing your vision of Kusari solely on Shogun Total War in spess is pushing it too far and limiting the opportunities this house offers.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Sarawr!? - 04-07-2015
Can I just make a pretty simple and clear cut reply to this?
I don't want to use an RL vs. FL argument here, because honestly I think they're kind of lame, but for the sake of arguing along similar lines to some other folks, I will.
Real life Japan went from a Monarchy to a 'Democracy' in 20 years. (Let's use 1927 to 1947.)
Kusari in Vanilla was ruled by an Emperor for hundreds of years, it has been twenty one years since Vanilla AND Kusari lost a war to a foreign power, hence the Emperor being deposed, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm almost certain that in the current lore as it stands, the Emperor was deposed in order to avoid a fullscale Gallic occupation of Kusari.
My point is, a lot can change in 20 years, and this is the direction that was decided upon, and so that's what happened.
See, that's the thing about Roleplaying, the people involved are the people who should get to make changes and decisions regarding it. People on the outside, be they staff, or just players with different opinions and ideas, while free to offer input, don't get to just come in and tell people how to do things, or at least they shouldn't be able to do so.
(As long as these things aren't you know, metagaming or powergaming and so forth).
Anyway, that post was a lot more wordy than I intended, and maybe I deviated from the intended topic a little bit, but some of that stuff just needed to be said, since far too many people around here seem to think they can just tell people what to do without actually being involved in things that are going on.
Anyway, we all know what people say about opinions, so I'll stop myself now. XD
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Mephistoles - 04-07-2015
I would've just assumed that it was easiest way for a Kishiro-backed attempt to overthrow the Samura-backed empire: the easiest way to exercise control while fooling the general populace into believing they weren't under a dictatorship.
RE: Kusari Republic - why not Constitutional Monarchy? - Fluffyball - 04-07-2015
I never wanted to criticize Kusari as Republic, neither make a calque from the RL into FL. I just wanted to criticize that some points are off, as I would not expect from people to simply accept the Republic without (puppet) Emperor - not a anonymous group of some people. Guys, Kusari was several hundred years old feudal monarchy.
The instant Monarchy-to-Republic thing went too fast, in a harshly brutal way. It's like USA became Communist Regime in one day, impossible and secession on a large scale (both in civic and military grade) would be unavoidable - for what I hope for Kusari, if devs are indeed planning out Kusari Civil War.
Such comparisons however are unavoidable, as Digital Anvil projected game strongly after real life counterparts - like Char said, Disco Kusari looks like a reversed late period of the Boshin War - while vanilia situation inside Kusari looked more like a fusion between early Tokugawa Period and early Boshin War (Imperial-Dragon relation).
Moreover, even Discovery is trying to calque the exact behaviours that happened in our history. If you were to ask me how I see Rheinland right now, I'd say it looks dangerously close to how Weimar Republic looked like.
I'm sorry for this topic, but after being deeply into Confucian and Neo-Confucian political studies and mixed history of Far East, I can't fend of the feeling I saw it somewhere already. I'm a bookworm and politologist, if it comes to such political systems with obvious inspirations.