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+--- Thread: Ship-based technerf thread one billion (/showthread.php?tid=131709)
Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Karst - 07-18-2015
Okay. It's this thread again.
This is not so much a discussion thread as a "what needs to be done to get rid of it thread".
I think we're past the point of trying to justify ship-based technerf, at least for the most part.
But to avoid misunderstandings, let me explain first:
What is ship-based technerf?
Ship-based technerf or shipcompat is a horrible piece of code that checks the compatibility between a ship and the equipment mounted.
It is independent of ID and has only two possible settings, full core or 10% core (edit: in case of weapons - the battleship scanner has more varied settings).
The average player has probably never even had the displeasure of experiencing ship-based technerf as it only applies to people who like to experiment around with tech combos.
Because this was apparently confusing for people in all previous threads about the subject, let me state in red that this thread has nothing to do with technerf in general aka ID based technerf. I am not suggesting no-nerf LN turtles.
Ship-based and ID-based technerf are totally unrelated.
What is ship-based technerf applied to?
Basically most combinations of ship and gun that are somewhat unusual, for example Bretonian lawful guns on a Junker ship, as well as pretty much any combination of Gallic and Sirian tech.
Because civilian ships are generally compatible with everything and most more exotic combinations do not work on any ID because of ID-based technerf, this is not often noticeable.
Tech combinations that would work without ship-based technerf include for example: Council guns on Bretonian lawful ships (would be 90% on BAF ID), Rheinland lawful guns on IMG ships (would be 90% on ALG ID), or Red Hessian guns on Z series ships (would be 90% with Molly ID).
Why was ship-based technerf implemented? Why is or isn't it necessary?
The ship-based technerf plugin was written by Kazinsal and I suspect mainly implemented because it seemed cool that such a thing was possible.
It was announced as a "feature" despite being strictly negative - it ruined a lot of people's ships, and I'm pretty sure nobody thought "Hey, I'm so glad that Carbine Sabre I had is finally unusable".
Because people didn't really understand what it did or why and the announcement was written in a positive way, it was mostly welcomed.
By the time anyone realized that all it did was limit freedom of customization, it was too late.
Every time it was discussed after, half the people commenting just assumed the argument was about technerf in general and yet every poll taken on the matter still had a majority in favor of abolishing it.
At that time there was some argument to be made about actual balance concerns, as gun effectiveness varied pretty significantly - although it was always questionable if any combination it prevented (which would be 90% at best to begin with) was really that much more effective than a similar 100% combination.
At the very latest with Haste's universal fighter gun efficiency formula, any argument based on balance is out the window as guns are all balanced the same way - fighter guns, that is.
Ship-based technerf is mainly relevant for fighters since bigger ships either do not need different equipment tech (transports, bombers) and or are highly restricted by ID-based technerf anyway (caps).
So are there any potential balance issues that could arise if it were removed?
Yes....although only a very specific one, and that is gunboat forward guns.
These vary pretty wildly in damage, range, and size, and without ship-based technerf there may be issues such as Exiles Kusari Gunboats mounting the huge and very strong Bretonian Gunboat Forward Gun. The way the arcs work on gunboat forward guns may cause issues as well such as 360° "forward" guns on the Orca.
There may be a small number of other items that may cause issues, such as the Red Hessian Cruiser Missile. Overall however these are niche worries unlikely to cause havoc.
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Anyway.
I'm making this thread to draw attention to this issue and collect it in one place.
The problem seems to be that nobody really knows how to deal with it, and it's never been priority because most people simply don't care.
When I bugged Haste about it, he told me to talk to aerelm, who agreed with my sentiment and told me to talk to Alley, who said the plugin was an absolute mess.
I'm hoping that there's some way the balance team can coordinate with the code team to get rid of this awful thing.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Lythrilux - 07-18-2015
REMOVE SHIPCOMPAT
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Enkidu - 07-18-2015
I agree, it doesn't add anything. It's an act of censorship without cause and doesn't make an enormous amount of RP sense - you'd expect allied factions to have a degree of tech trading going on.
ID based technerf is sensible. Shipnerf is nonesensical.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Kauket - 07-18-2015
(07-18-2015, 04:22 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: REMOVE SHIPCOMPAT
agreed
there is nothing more to it and nothing less
aside from pirate id centurions with gallic carbines o well
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Wildkins - 07-18-2015
(07-18-2015, 04:20 PM)Karst Wrote: I am not suggesting no-nerf LN turtles.
How'd you know?
...
But yes. Really, there's not much use for shipcompat. If we've already limited what IDs can use what tech, why limit that even further? If I can fly a Sichel and I have access to Coalition guns, for instance, I should be able to put two and two together.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Corile - 07-18-2015
Does that mean I can put carbines and purple goddesses on the same FL ID ship?
This needs to be done.
Right.
Now.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Alley - 07-18-2015
The funny fact about this is getting rid of it is as painful as implementing it.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - SpaceTime - 07-18-2015
I agree. Every piece of equipment should be calculated in regards to the mounted ID, not with everything.
(07-18-2015, 04:20 PM)Karst Wrote: The ship-based technerf plugin was written by Kazinsal and I suspect mainly implemented because it seemed cool that such a thing was possible.
I should inform you that back in the day, official factions controlled the tech. If someone wanted to use your faction's tech, he had to request it. Or discuss it oorply about stealing it, etc.
Of course that meant if for example I wanted a Katana for my freelancer and I was in good terms with Ryummel, I'd contact him, work out the details and get one with 100% core. If I was the best roleplayer with the best idea but I wasn't in good terms... then tough luck, you wouldn't get anything.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Karst - 07-18-2015
(07-18-2015, 04:47 PM)SpaceTime Wrote: I agree. Every piece of equipment should be calculated in regards to the mounted ID, not with everything.
(07-18-2015, 04:20 PM)Karst Wrote: The ship-based technerf plugin was written by Kazinsal and I suspect mainly implemented because it seemed cool that such a thing was possible.
I should inform you that back in the day, official factions controlled the tech. If someone wanted to use your faction's tech, he had to request it. Or discuss it oorply about stealing it, etc.
Of course that meant if for example I wanted a Katana for my freelancer and I was in good terms with Ryummel, I'd contact him, work out the details and get one with 100% core. If I was the best roleplayer with the best idea but I wasn't in good terms... then tough luck, you wouldn't get anything.
I do remember that, but ship-based technerf came long, long after ID-based technerf.
The ID-based system worked fine for years until shipcompat came along.
RE: Ship-based technerf thread one billion - Tyria Regalia - 07-18-2015
I'm not arguing against you, but Ship Compatibility makes a lot more sense than ID Compatibility.