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+--- Thread: On reengaging after dying (/showthread.php?tid=150530)
RE: On reengaging after dying - Toris (Old Account) - 05-25-2017
What about doing what I've proposed one time in the past?
If you are killed in a snub, your character + any of your characters that can initiate the attack* cannot reenter the same system for 2 hours, except for your trading chars - because traders usually do not initiate the attack or piracy*. If your trader goes down, then you can't enter the system with any of your chars.
*Some traders can pirate other corporations. In such a scenario, the line would be unable to fulfill in the system they died in as a snub.
RE: On reengaging after dying - TickTack - 05-25-2017
The old rule was much more simple to understand and easy to process, not to mention allowed ease of filing reports for violations, it used to be if you get blued you're pvp dead in that system for 4 hours, no re-entry and no re-engaging parties that engaged you. The rule is a mess and leaves too many "What if?" scenarios, honestly whoever re-wrote this rule should be smacked across the back of the head.
I mean currently I can just relog on another ship same faction just a different name and could even use the same type of ship, granted I wouldn't be able to engage them but who needs to do that when all I have to do is provoke them into engaging me.
Additionally they may have engaged me say 30 minutes ago and lets say I've logged a new character, I see them grouped with two other people and it look like they're preparing for a brawl, I also notice the navies side preparing for a brawl. This leads to two additional problems, first I could join the navies fleet and engage his friends [but not him] so I would be remaining within the rules by not engaging someone that killed me.
Second lets say they're gathering, suddenly one of them pops up on my scanner and I move to intercept, I catch it, engage it and kill it. I've now indirectly affected the fight, this could also be used as a method to draw them in for some revenge.
It leaves things very messy for reporting re-engage reporting, in a large brawl you'd have to take a screen shot of every ship actively shooting at yours and then be able to remember all their names so that if in an hours time you come across them you'd know they were breaking the rules, nobody wants to put in that much effort for a report, making a report should be easy to discourage rule breakers.
Rule is broken fix pls.
RE: On reengaging after dying - Karst - 05-25-2017
It's not really complicated at all, TickTack. You're just trying to make it complicated.
There are technicality loopholes all over the rules that cause very few problems, because people don't go out of the way to make those problems.
If you are actively looking for "what if" scenarios which you can use to go against the obvious spirit of the rule, you're just doing it to be obnoxious.
For anyone that genuinely has trouble understanding the rule, best just take Haste's advice or make use of Jayce' flowchart.
(05-24-2017, 10:55 PM)Haste Wrote: The easy way to avoid getting into trouble is just to log a "dead" character off for two hours and playing on a different one, in a different region.
RE: On reengaging after dying - sindroms - 05-25-2017
If people would not specifically go out of their way to use loopholes in the rules, we might be able to keep them simple and not complicated. And it is not the new players who do this. The rules are complex because it is the vets who try to take advantage of them, only to hide behind the shield of ''it is not stated that you can't do X'' once they are called out for it, because they know that technically they cannot be punished without a warning for doing so. The rules and their dysfunction are a part of the community mindset and the target audience.
RE: On reengaging after dying - Swordmaster - 05-25-2017
That image scheme is incomplete, because we can have some situations uncovered there.
Let's imagine this scenario:
phase 1 - battle: Navy 1vs Pirates 1,2,3
phase 2 - result: Navy 1 is killed ------> Navy 1 leaving system
phase 3 - log-in/off: Pirates 1,2,3 log-off -----> Navy 1 is returning in the system
phase 4: Navy 1 is fighting a Pirate 4, but Pirates 1,2,3 are returning in game
What is happening in this moment when Pirate 4 is asking Pirates 1,2,3 to help him? As the rule is stating now, Navy 1 and Pirates 1,2,3 can not engage in that system because of the 2 hours rule. This is a awkward situation and extremely unnatural. The 2 hours rule should expire when the group responsible for the kill is logging-off! If they log-off everything should reset.
It is not about loop holes here, as many of you, including admins, are stating. The rule is incomplete/badly formulated and, in the present form, can not cover the complexity of the current RP play.
RE: On reengaging after dying - sasapinjic - 05-25-2017
(05-25-2017, 09:07 AM)Skorak Wrote: Your killer did not log off.
He was killed by my wingman who stayed in system , he should log-off or leave system and he did , he un-dock from Manhattan and went to Texas , but it took him more than 5 minutes . Will player logg-off as soon as he is killed , then log back in or he will press re-spawn to re-buy ammo and bits is up to player , and you cant really know difference by looking at departing/new player messages . It is a thin line between logging-off/log right back and re-spawn in base .
This hole situation ( looks )clear to me , if anyone want to ( long ) read :
![[+]](/forums/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
Spoiler
RE: On reengaging after dying - Skorak - 05-25-2017
As Haste said you can avoid any kind of unnatural situations or dumb complex encounters by just logging off after you die. You died in the fight, stop trying to get back into it in a weird way.
The rule was allowing the freedom to return into the system should everything stop and all players leave. So you can resume your usual gameplay earlier than 2 hours. As it appears people here want to rather be forced to stay away on all their ships for 2 or even 4 hours.
What are you guys doing? The only way to make this rule less complex or confusing is to remove all freedom and just force you to log off for 2 hours and don't even glance at that system on the nav map.
RE: On reengaging after dying - Toris (Old Account) - 05-25-2017
What if we allowed ppl to return to the system in trader in which their snub was killed? Most fights take place in most crowded areas, so it's a serious issue for traders to go around.
RE: On reengaging after dying - TickTack - 05-25-2017
(05-25-2017, 11:17 AM)sindroms Wrote: If people would not specifically go out of their way to use loopholes in the rules, we might be able to keep them simple and not complicated. And it is not the new players who do this. The rules are complex because it is the vets who try to take advantage of them, only to hide behind the shield of ''it is not stated that you can't do X'' once they are called out for it, because they know that technically they cannot be punished without a warning for doing so. The rules and their dysfunction are a part of the community mindset and the target audience.
If there is an exploitable advantage in general people will always capitalize on it. I'm pretty sure the person who first wrote up this rule thought long and hard about developing and wording it in such a way that it couldn't be circumvented by technicalities. Not saying I use these tactics here either I'm just stating what I've observed others doing.
RE: On reengaging after dying - St.Denis - 05-25-2017
(05-25-2017, 11:23 AM)Swordmaster Wrote: That image scheme is incomplete, because we can have some situations uncovered there.
Let's imagine this scenario:
phase 1 - battle: Navy 1vs Pirates 1,2,3
phase 2 - result: Navy 1 is killed ------> Navy 1 leaving system
phase 3 - log-in/off: Pirates 1,2,3 log-off -----> Navy 1 is returning in the system
phase 4: Navy 1 is fighting a Pirate 4, but Pirates 1,2,3 are returning in game
What is happening in this moment when Pirate 4 is asking Pirates 1,2,3 to help him? As the rule is stating now, Navy 1 and Pirates 1,2,3 can not engage in that system because of the 2 hours rule. This is a awkward situation and extremely unnatural. The 2 hours rule should expire when the group responsible for the kill is logging-off! If they log-off everything should reset.
It is not about loop holes here, as many of you, including admins, are stating. The rule is incomplete/badly formulated and, in the present form, can not cover the complexity of the current RP play.
' Wrote:What is happening in this moment when Pirate 4 is asking Pirates 1,2,3 to help him? As the rule is stating now, Navy 1 and Pirates 1,2,3 can not engage in that system because of the 2 hours rule. This is a awkward situation and extremely unnatural. The 2 hours rule should expire when the group responsible for the kill is logging-off! If they log-off everything should reset.
There is nothing stopping Pirates getting involved in the Fight, as they are not PvP dead.
The Rules are there, in a fairly simplistic form, to allow people to look at them and generally see what they are pointing at. If we were to write the Rules so that they are completely airtight, each Rule would probably cover a couple of Pages.
To give you an idea, I suggest you have a look at Terms and Conditions (T&Cs) for any agreement for Loans, Credit Cards etc. These are Pages long and written in the smallest writing to reduce the amount of Pages that they take up.
If you read the first paragraph, of the Rules, you will see this:
Quote: Fair play, a level head and consideration for others are paramount. The rules are not a sword or shield to be used for or against someone, but to ensure that the server environment has structure and allows everyone to have fun.
This should be the most overriding Rule there is. The problem comes when people want to microscopically dissect each Rule to 'get one over another'.
I would like to think that all of you are intelligent people and don't need someone to hold your hand and explain every little thing.
Now, instead of trying to 'out do someone else', PLAY FAIR, consider the others, that play here, and more importantly, HAVE FUN (but not at the expense of everybody else). If all of us did this, this Community and Server would be a lot better place.