(05-02-2019, 10:28 PM)JonasHudson Wrote: If a side cant actually win its major battles, it shouldn't be made to be winning!
I get what you mean, but by that logic Hessians are a bigger problem than the nomads.
Just needs regulation. Designate essential stations that cant be touched, or only with special gains to cash in.
Or ensure the ZOI of factions is re evaluated. Inside Hessian territory, if they have the best numbers, they can indeed dominate.
But regulation would keep these imbalances in line. Thats also why I suggested a points system. You can have 20 battleships but can you earn points to use them as well?
I see it possible Bretonia could destroy each Gallic npc BS and cruiser station in NL within weeks, but not be in New Paris overnight. But if they did siege a base a month, after a year or two who knows!
For non houses, stations in disputed territory could only be 'claimable' and captured to, change control, rather than dissappear. If a faction can keep its population high, it can hold the disputed stations near its territory, and if not....
In my eyes, RHA is more a threat to Rheinland than Kusari anyways, and it would be pretty interesting if they could make some semi serious moves on Rheinland. Small factions like that going after planets and moons as targets for assault or siezing sounds great!
Like if the Blood Dragons could 'capture' or cut off Kyushu, even temporarily, by destroying a government battleship guarding the planet. Nothing has to be permanent, but a system lets factions at least challenge for, try their attack, and counter challenge. Then the war story arcs write themselves!
(05-02-2019, 10:28 PM)JonasHudson Wrote: If a side cant actually win its major battles, it shouldn't be made to be winning!
Fair, but that's got nothing to do with Ku-Rh war, since neither side has shown clear dominance - RM certainly has won more of them, but Kusari has also won events very convincingly. In the event that was referenced by OP (EDIT: felt bad not acknowledging the 'Sairs contribution to that victory, so... I ACKNOWLEDGE YOU SAIRS), he forgets to mention the 3 events shortly before in which Kusari got reamed in 2 and reamed RM in the other, or indeed the other one that RM lost, or the one before that in which KNF narrowly lost, or before that, or before that... you see where I am going. Lets not fall into factionalism here - there's plenty wrong with the war as it is. However, it's the only war we've got as the old joke goes - we can't just snap our fingers and make it go away. Might just be me, but I think a conversation needs to be had between Rheinland leads, Kusari leads and GMs to determine where this story is going and how it should, believably, play out.
To address some points people have made, along with some of my own thoughts mixed in:
1) More official events - Yes, and No. On the one hand, it does at times feel that unless we're actively pushing player run events, the war stagnates. More official events could well help make this war "important" to people again; though I caution everyone to remember how much bitterness the sweeping changes brought on by Official Events cause.
2) Player run events have pretty much been the backbone of the entire war - more of them would probably be fun, but there's also the burnout problem. Simply look at the rash of events late last year and early this year, by the end of that cycle getting anyone to log became an absolute chore. That being said, the lack of an event since Honshu is something that was brought up recently - and has since been discussed. I am in the process of drafting an event that hopefully will be fun and engaging for both sides. I'd encourage others to do the same; I cannot speak for any other faction or their leaders, but if you're RM and you come to me with an event idea, I promise you it'll be heard out, at the very least.
3) "End the war mentality" - the exact extent to which people want to end the war seems to be directly tied to the current level of stagnation. See, for example, last years rash of posts along the lines of "lets end it, its bad, etc, etc"; this was soon to be replaced with "fight to the end", etc in the vote that followed after christmas, in clear corollary to the 'success' of Rheinland. I caution at this point as well that none of those votes are focused on faction members - no offense to Lyth at all, but NieRdackel is right in the point that people who play no part in the war have had, shown and voted with strong opinions that do not necessarily reflect the feelings of the people directly involved.
Given this state of affairs, I find myself coming back to "the various faction leads need to sit down with GMs to discuss how we proceed." If an end to the war is desired, that option is not closed off. Nor is a continuation of the war. We can lead the way, but in the end it'll be a GM deciding how it goes down.
As for the necessary engagement, and player activity - we've seen that can be generated by even just a few players. Myself and 2 others built a base in Sigma, and triggered the only real activity GMG has had in a long while. Of course the behaviour that came out of some of these unregulated 'events' also pushed alot of people away again fair quickly - on both sides, we must remember that we're telling and experiencing a story, not just trying to win.
4)
(05-02-2019, 08:09 PM)Backo Wrote: I think the whole reason why Kusari and Rheinland went to war with each other was of gameplay balance so that they don't gang up on Liberty (which would have been the more RP thing to do anyways). /shrug
This seems to be the case, though I have no evidence to confirm or deny that. It simply makes sense, and is not an exactly uncommon technique in "player driven" type games. A certain balance of power is sometimes needed - or at least perceived to be needed - to preserve fair play. There was once a feeling that it was more logical for Ku-Rh to be aligned with each other, which could conceivable be seen as a balancing issue.
5) @JonasHudson: I'm not going to quote bits you said, I'd end up quoting most of your post. You've got some very interesting suggestions there, with both pro's and con's, which I think would merit discussion. If you'd be willing, I highly encourage you to split them off for suggestions not for the Ku-Rh war, but rather for how we handle wars and so on in general. I would very much like to see them discussed, refined and implemented. Riehl has raised one of the obvious issues, but I'm not going to go into a long pro-and-con post; this post would end up unbearably long, and I fear we'd be derailing the thread quite substantially.
6)
Quote:In my eyes, RHA is more a threat to Rheinland than Kusari anyways, and it would be pretty interesting if they could make some semi serious moves on Rheinland. Small factions like that going after planets and moons as targets for assault or siezing sounds great!
But in most people's eyes is not a believable flow of events, and does nothing to 'still' oorp issues or settle inrp ones, see the reaction around Vierlande. At this point, we come back to "formalizing" how exactly strengths play out. Point in case: the Vanilla game holds it to be impossible for the unlawfuls to operate in open space, whether that be in Rheinland, in Kusari or in Liberty or anywhere else; but by contrast there must be a feeling of progression for those same groups - or they fall into the exact trap we have seen: PVP=RP, an attitude which I promise you will kill the game more surely than a "bad" war. Complaining about the current war seems to be a disco past-time... its not so long ago this thread was duplicated with "Ku vs RH" replaced with "Bretonnia and Gallia."
(05-02-2019, 10:40 PM)Backo Wrote: Nomads got beaten by a single Bretonian with questionable sexuality.
THERE IS NOTHING QUESTIONABLE ABOUT BEING TRENT-SEXUAL XD
TL;DR: Kusari Leaders, Rheinland Leaders and GM team, please sit down and come up with a good story to bring this whole thing to an end in a believable way.
(05-02-2019, 10:43 PM)Pepe Wrote: About war I can just ask who would RM and KNF pew if not each other? Would they even exist?
Both have plenty of unlawful factions in their own houses to deal with.
The difference is that RM can occasionally win fights against KNF. Fun matters too. Fun usually happens when you have a side which can compete against each other with no worse than a 35% chance of victory. I don't agree with it, but in my exstensive experience of begging people to log to fight the Hessians, it doesn't work if you get aymmetrically roasted over a fire. I will happily log in to get my ass kicked. Most don't.
(05-02-2019, 10:58 PM)JonasHudson Wrote: In my eyes, RHA is more a threat to Rheinland than Kusari anyways, and it would be pretty interesting if they could make some semi serious moves on Rheinland. Small factions like that going after planets and moons as targets for assault or siezing sounds great!
Being in the same house as Daddy Hessia's domestic abuse is difficult enough to compel people to log for, without the awareness that them logging in will lead to the Hessians gaining territorial aquisitions in excess of their storyline-induced abillities. Then nobody will log and Rheinland will be dead. The hessians have recieved over a decade of powercreep from passive development anyway. The Hel cruiser originally being a shared Unioner+LWB design but made into a Hessian design for no other reason than former Developer Blodo and Hessian lead thought that they should have it. The introduction of Wiesbaden because the Hessians wanted a Hispania-level planet, capture of Tangier, etc. Hessians have had their run of conquering things.
The Hessians have a different development standard applied to them than every other house unlawful group in the game, all because of one passing line on a Hessian base that said they're the third largest unlawful group in Sirius from vanilla. That doesn't really explain why they're perpetually, near-manically prioritised over every other unlawful group.
(05-03-2019, 12:49 AM)Loken Wrote: Both have plenty of unlawful factions in their own houses to deal with.
I kinda' feel the Police and intel groups should be tackling pirates. Navies get caps to attack other navies, or criimals with caps. But pirates rarely go pirating in caps and usually only use them for mass raids. In an ideal sustainable activity cycle, navy would be shooting navy, police shooting lane pirates, and intel factions shooting terrorist groups which usually have a fair amount of inter-house ZOI.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(05-03-2019, 01:18 AM)Riehl Wrote: Being in the same house as Daddy Hessia's domestic abuse is difficult enough to compel people to log for, without the awareness that them logging in will lead to the Hessians gaining territorial aquisitions in excess of their storyline-induced abillities.
Which are what exactly? Our holdings in Omega-54 and Dresden? No, that is not excessive at all, those are where our core installations are and a very good portion of our forces. Dresden has been a valued target for the Hessians for patriotic reasons as well as strategic reasons. The only system under our banner mostly with no major conflicting claims is Omega-2. Following that we have holdings in Omega-47 and Omega-5 but neither system is completely owned by us. The Nav map quite clearly explains our supply lines to maintain these fronts with what we already have.
Unseelie01/05/2019
was wandering around the whole of omega thinking about "how do the hessians do their supply lines"(edited)
Unseelie01/05/2019
and came up with this
Quote: Then nobody will log and Rheinland will be dead.
No, people will not log because they are so afraid of losing and not being able to rub it in with some glorified MD stating how amazing and powerful their faction is. Every faction does it, I garutnee if the sides were switched the same players would still not be logging. It is not the objective of the RHA to capture all of Rheinland anyways.
Quote:The hessians have recieved over a decade of powercreep from passive development anyway.
Oh no, we received our own battleship and two bases (one being our cap sellpoint, the other being our restart base - who would have guessed!). Surely this is a massive powercreep with no basis. @Blodo was a real bad guy y'know, can never trust him...
Quote:The Hel cruiser originally being a shared Unioner+LWB design but made into a Hessian design for no other reason than former Developer Blodo and Hessian lead thought that they should have it.
Oh really?
Hel infocard Wrote:RH-GM461 "Hel" Cruiser
The Hel class cruiser is an early Red Hessian capital ship project that has since been superseded by the heavier Vidar. While not as powerful as the Vidar, the Hel is smaller and more maneuverable. Although still in active service, it is considered an obsolete design by the Red Hessians, and various ships of this class have been sold off or turned over to Hessian allies.
Quote:The introduction of Wiesbaden because the Hessians wanted a Hispania-level planet, capture of Tangier, etc. Hessians have had their run of conquering things.
That's funny considereing Wiesbaden is still not colonized nor can it be without controlled biomes/enviroments due to it's enviromental properties - same goes for Tangier. Might I also add that Tangier was never "captured", there was no opposition when we set up camp there.
Outdated infocard Wrote:Planet Tangier is a young, terrestrial planet orbiting its sun at a considerable distance. It is a cold world with barely enough atmosphere to support life and still largely burning under its moderately thin crust. The planet has hundreds of active volcanoes and massive earthquakes that frequently decimate areas along the planet’s faultlines. The main attraction of Tangier lies in its moderate, but easily accessible mineral deposits of Iron, Aluminum and Magnesium which are mined and sent up to Viernheim for processing.
Tangier had previously been surveyed by the Corsairs before falling under Red Hessian control after the Casablanca offensive of 811 AS. In 816 AS multiple small expeditions were launched to the planet in order to occupy existing and construct new mining facilities with plans made to construct a docking ring in orbit to ease the supplying of food and water and the bring up of raw minerals.
By 824 AS, after eight years of difficult work, the docking ring of planet Tangier became active allowing the population of roughly 5,000 miners to enjoy consistent resupply and potentially open the more stable areas to be further colonised.
Quote:The Hessians have a different development standard applied to them than every other house unlawful group in the game, all because of one passing line on a Hessian base that said they're the third largest unlawful group in Sirius from vanilla. That doesn't really explain why they're perpetually, near-manically prioritised over every other unlawful group.
So let me get this straight, our "prioritized" unlawful group, which has since the time of blodo received several storyline downplays. As well as being shoved aside so the Coalition can insert themselves as they please - is somehow operating in excess because we have captured/done... what exactly? The only base we have captured besides Leipzig was Casablanca, and if you read the lore you know that certainly didn't work out. We have since attacked one, yes, one base in Omega-3 which is now dead. Our ship paid the price in excess for it, we have also now attacked and smashed one of your bases (which you yourself requested). So I fail to see where it is exactly that we have over extended to, considering our fights right now are all within systems we have holdings in. We have made no moves with any of our static assets beyond Kassel which moved to Omega-7 briefly.
Please stop spreading lies and misinformation about my faction because the Unioners are smaller and aren't capable of nearly what you spend days writing them out to be.
(05-03-2019, 02:01 AM)Wesker Wrote: RH-GM461 "Hel" Cruiser
The Hel class cruiser is an early Red Hessian capital ship project that has since been superseded by the heavier Vidar. While not as powerful as the Vidar, the Hel is smaller and more maneuverable. Although still in active service, it is considered an obsolete design by the Red Hessians, and various ships of this class have been sold off or turned over to Hessian allies.
You're well aware that infocard was changed. The original Hel infocard is still knocking about on one of the pre 2013 disco versions.
(05-03-2019, 02:01 AM)Wesker Wrote: So let me get this straight, our "prioritized" unlawful group, which has since the time of blodo received several storyline downplays. As well as being shoved aside so the Coalition can insert themselves as they please - is somehow operating in excess because we have captured/done... what exactly? The only base we have captured besides Leipzig was Casablanca, and if you read the lore you know that certainly didn't work out. We have since attacked one, yes, one base in Omega-3 which is now dead. Our ship paid the price in excess for it, we have also now attacked and smashed one of your bases (which you yourself requested). So I fail to see where it is exactly that we have over extended to, considering our fights right now are all within systems we have holdings in. We have made no moves with any of our static assets beyond Kassel which moved to Omega-7 briefly.
Sure. Let me run it down:
1) Only unlawful group to capture an entire vanilla house system.
2) One of only three unlawful groups to keep your guard system, with the bare minimum of de-guarding applied.
3) Unlawful group that stretches across the entire omegas is also the most powerful Rheinland unlawful group.
4) ZOI increased over time to include swathes of Bretonia.
5) Official faction which used to have the best tech access in the game, for a very long time. Still holds a large number of ships from that time.
6) The hessians can do everything by themselves. They don't have anything they specifically lack. Every other unlawful faction - including Hispania, has that lore ballance. The Hessians have anything they could wish for an organisation of their size.
7) The Hessians controlled the primary unlawful smuggling export trade in Rheinland for years until I asked for military salvage to be put in to impose some kind of ballance. The Blood diamond trade is still rife over other Rheinland unlawful's infocards.
8) The Hessians got an all-swallowing alliance chain that makes it difficult to do anything differently as a left-wing group.
9) Unlawful group that has never lost a base in a star system.
10) The Hessians play like an unstoppable army of orcs. You're not this. You're a large pirate organisation.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(05-03-2019, 10:57 AM)LV-426 Wrote: Can you place your RHA bias somewhere else, people trying to solve the Ku-Rh problem, not your "RHA is bad" problem.
It's more "RHA believes its ZOI is its sandbox utopia and other factions are just 'haters'." Subject was raised as to an alternative to fighting the KU war. Point was made.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)