(05-04-2019, 05:40 PM)Vexykin Wrote: The problem with this, is how Xenos lack real resources and manpower to actually grow, not to mention produce/operate capital ships, they are radical terrorists who are not that numerous, therefore it's hard to decide what their "Shipline" should be, or not to mention if they could afford building their own, with tools they don't really have.
(05-04-2019, 05:52 PM)Reeves Wrote:
(05-04-2019, 05:40 PM)Vexykin Wrote: manpower
Not a problem. Might have been a problem when the Xenos were first founded but certainly not in the present-day.
(05-04-2019, 05:40 PM)Vexykin Wrote: they are radical terrorists who are not that numerous
Refrain from imposing your own uneducated interpretations of other factions into a thread asking for design suggestions. We most obviously know our faction better than you do. And if you have misconceptions in need of clarification then direct them to our feedback thread. We are more than happy to educate you with the correct facts.
(05-04-2019, 05:40 PM)Vexykin Wrote: RP factors
By this logic many unlawful factions with the exception of one or two would have their own ships and none except the Hispanic unlawfuls would have their own warships. We aren't producing a capital ship-line so I'm confused where some of this is coming from.
I would appreciate if people posting adhered to what Lucas asked for, which is feedback and suggestions. This is not a thread for you to discuss Xeno lore or your perceptions of the faction. There's a place for that and it most certainly isn't here.
(05-04-2019, 05:55 PM)Vexykin Wrote: Just saying you have grown, doesn't make it canon.
Referencing vanilla infocards, doesn't also make it canon.
Just sayin' , my "uneducated" guess is as good as any
(05-04-2019, 05:56 PM)Reeves Wrote:
(05-04-2019, 05:55 PM)Vexykin Wrote: Just saying you have grown, doesn't make it canon.
Referencing vanilla infocards, doesn't also make it canon.
Just sayin' , my uneducated guess is as good as any
Put your uneducated guesses in the right thread. That isn't here.
Referencing this, and besides you being snarky about it, I would like to get some clarification indeed, as I admit I haven't followed 100% of what you have Roleplayed, and of course what you have Roleplayed doesn't make it canon either, unless it's accepted by the story team, right?
This being said,
Please do elaborate on your population growth over time, without referencing non-canon vanilla infocards(Which are suggestive, not canon for those who did not know), also the reasons why people have joined the radical agenda to actually leave their lives behind to build up a proper resistance, ships, blueprints, knowledge & engineers, equipment and with tools and resources they get from their supposed powerful supportive allies they don't quite have.
If your basis for that Roleplay you are referring to is logical, I stand corrected...Some clarification here would help a great deal
Thank you in advance.
Feedback for future reference. I'll attach it to this post and respond as the 1ic. This is probably going to end up being a wall of text but bear with me because I'd rather explain this fully and put notions to rest for good than address them continually.
First and foremost, I'll address your attempts to be snarky and funny with serious answers. Let's start with some accepted vanilla lore, which if you denied would be laughable as then the basic principles behind every faction that comes from vanilla would fall apart.
Xeners Wrote:This group was originally comprised of heavy manufacturing and mining workers within Colorado and Texas. Many of their ancestors also worked in the research station, which was a good employer for generations. But Liberty increasingly made money from its information technology licensing and Trade Lane associated monopolies rather than hard, manufactured goods. Over time most of the blue-collar workers became unemployed and were pushed to the economic fringe of Liberty society. As the Liberty rich moved to Colorado to escape the paradise lost in California, the Xenos were displaced to a small base in the mined out Silverton Asteroid Field. Once there the Xenos launched sporadic raids focused against foreign shippers.
Whenever they were captured they were sent to Huntsville prison in Texas, where cross-fertilization with other inmates only helped to swell their ranks. Xenos also hate the foreigner Outcasts that feed the habits of Liberty's morally corrupt rich. For this reason, most of those declared NCR for drug crimes are placed aboard the Sugarland to keep the two groups separate.
I've highlighted some points of importance. The entire thing is of course important in terms of giving you flavour but what I've referenced for you is likely the most important things to consider. Let's go for the biggest elephant in the room, our recruitment demographic and where we draw personnel from:
1) Every evil terrorist group needs henchmen. What's a better market for this than in Liberty? The amount of people living in abject poverty and with absolutely no civil rights is perhaps high enough to constitute a crisis. But Liberty does a good job of keeping this under wraps or brushed aside. Look no further than Pittsburgh, a vanilla planet with an extremely high population. Notice that what DSE is doing with said planet is essentially running slave camps filled with whatever labour they can acquire. In fact the infocard seems to imply that most of them are foreign. What do you do with your locals who can't work as fast or for the same cheap rates? The LPI sends them to a prison station for any crime that sticks and thus they become slaves to the system for the term of their sentence. What do you think people who have been subjected to things like this are going to do? Are they going to be logical? No. They're incredibly bitter and hateful of what they've endured at the hands of their own Government and the foreign labour replacing them. These people join the Xenos. And they can be quite compelling, especially to people at rock-bottom, which is a significant number. Not a massive number, but one worth attention. For every Xeno that gets sent to prison two more come out. This is simply how they draw members. Blue collar workers have varied backgrounds, but most commonly they have all at least been basically educated. Be they laborers or mechanics. This is how we have people capable of performing the basic repairs and work required to not only sustain snub-craft but develop our own crude weapons that get the job done.
How does this translate to having skilled labour? The Xenos have existed for no insignificant amount of time. That much is clear. Give anything enough time and it will inevitably go somewhere. No doubt the Xenos have been much slower to develop than their rivals, this does not mean they are incapable of it. They are only just now, after quite possibly centuries of existence, developing fighters. When almost all of their rivals can at least maintain their own gunboats. The reality is that the Xenos still cannot afford to develop massive amounts of hardware. It's a problem of cash flow. The balance sheet has gotten better, but it's not nearly high enough to sustain assets that factions like the Lane Hackers and Liberty Police do. This does not mean that the Xenos explicitly lack manpower for expansion. It's extremely likely they have the bodies, but not always the tools or the cash to properly equip them with. That much is acknowledged and held sacred by every Xeno faction. The concept of having absolutely nothing left to lose is what motivates these grunts.
2) Engineers and other skilled labour would by all logical means come in the form of disgruntled former servants of the Republic. These recruitment numbers would be much smaller than the main composition, but they would be worth much more than the rabble just by the weight of their qualifications. Before you try to reference HF or Harmony, please understand that once again the Xenos have existed for a very long time. The Government is notorious for budget cuts and lay-offs in times of peace and the Xenos do not harbour excessive malice for the Navy like some other unlawful factions do. Therefore as a former serviceman with no job anymore and no place to go, but with the skills to either fight, create or maintain, it seems logical that you would fall in with people in the same position. Of course there is an appeal to joining other factions that draw primarily from this pool, this is where the bulk of these numbers likely go. But not everyone is impressed by factions like the Legion or the Separatists who have a lot of blue blood on their hands.
Moving on. I'll address your careless remark about not having either allies or support. You are factually wrong in stating this. For we do presently have an alliance agreement and an underhand arrangement with the Legion and Universal Shipping respectively. The former gives us a great deal of equipment and most likely training, while the latter provides us with material support in the form of basic resources needed for operation. Universal is also our extension into Liberty politics as I highlighted above. Both these relations have existed for years now and have been represented as such.
The people who join the Xenos do not have lives to leave behind, or at least not one worth going back to. And in Liberty, it's a tragic reality that there are many of these people. The exceptionally brilliant and most enterprising go to the Hackers. Those with enough hate and a grudge to see the rest of the Sector pay for stealing their lives go to the Xenos. And those not-so quick opportunists fall in with the Rogues. It's exceptionally easy to become radical and hateful in the dystopian universe of Freelancer. And Liberty's Government and Police provide a chunk of its people with plenty of reasons to resort to nothing short of crude reprisal.
Combine this with recent developments and you have an answer. Take it or leave it.
While all the points you made are valid, you forget the most important part, your resistance.
You may grow as a faction, but you don't take account how many enemies Xenos have against their radical ideals, they are even more hated than regular scummy Pirates who live their life for self-gain, so therefore your flawed logic is only based on growth, rather than actually thinking it through logically, that you also have very powerful enemies, siding you from all angles.
While the lore's base makes sense, and the recruitment process as well, and you have enlightened me on various aspects, it's mostly nothing I did not already know.
Take your surrounding enemies and their capabilities throughout last Disco-Years (Not Vanilla years) , think of how much resistance you've got from much larger organizations who are opposing you.
(05-04-2019, 07:01 PM)Reeves Wrote: First and foremost, I'll address your attempts to be snarky and funny with serious answers. Let's start with some accepted vanilla lore, which if you denied would be laughable as then the basic principles behind every faction that comes from vanilla would fall apart.
Calling me snarky and unfunny, isn't relevant, especially if you started being snarky in the first place and I already called you out on that
If you can't take criticism, without being snarky, then you are not fit to lead an Official Faction in the first place.
But enough NO U'ing, as I'm trying to leave feedback here and perhaps gain insight on your faction even more, I'm not here to thumb you down, I'm simply using my logic against the current case here.
(05-04-2019, 07:01 PM)Reeves Wrote: Notice that what DSE is doing with said planet is essentially running slave camps filled with whatever labour they can acquire. In fact the infocard seems to imply that most of them are foreign. What do you do with your locals who can't work as fast or for the same cheap rates? The LPI sends them to a prison station for any crime that sticks and thus they become slaves to the system for the term of their sentence. What do you think people who have been subjected to things like this are going to do? Are they going to be logical? No. They're incredibly bitter and hateful of what they've endured at the hands of their own Government and the foreign labour replacing them. These people join the Xenos.
While I agree this gives a motivational point to actually join the radical Xenos to many, but not many are interested in suicidal tendencies and to become an all active terrorist with patriotism in heart, some may flee to another house, or flee to somewhere desolate to find peace, or yet join Liberty Rogues along the way, who live the simple life without obligations, rather than become a radical terrorist with a mission. (PS: Not being biased about my faction here)
I'm thinking this as myself, would I turn in to a terrorist after such subjugations, and perhaps have a rather low lifespan or I would choose the life of the free and perhaps survive even longer, while getting a chance to also resist against the government, and would rather choose the life with some benefits, or even earn trust and break free?
I would rather do anything to become free from the corruption and find myself somewhere desolate to live my days off peacefully elsewhere. (Even if that would come with strings attached)
Of course, it's a no point to argue where they will likely go, as it would really be random, as they may escape the slave camps, they may escape prisons, they may be helped by Xenoes, they may be helped by Hackers, Rogues, Hellfire, or whoever decides to free them to gain any kind of profit off it.
Rogues would most likely either keep them as slaves, until they've earned their freedom, or as janitors, or also recruit them to our ranks, Hackers would likely do similar things, depending on the knowledge of the individuals, or any other faction/group radicalist/activist, thus your opinion on this is rather self-absorbed to think like that all the slaves will automatically become patriotic and wanting to resist the government with patriotism at heart.
Some are tender in their hearts, even after such subjugations, and just want to live their last days/months/years being free.
Same self-absorbed mentality is going on here:
(05-04-2019, 07:01 PM)Reeves Wrote: Therefore as a former serviceman with no job anymore and no place to go, but with the skills to either fight, create or maintain, it seems logical that you would fall in with people in the same position. Of course there is an appeal to joining other factions that draw primarily from this pool, this is where the bulk of these numbers likely go. But not everyone is impressed by factions like the Legion or the Separatists who have a lot of blue blood on their hands.
(05-04-2019, 07:01 PM)Reeves Wrote: Moving on. I'll address your careless remark about not having either allies or support. You are factually wrong in stating this. For we do presently have an alliance agreement and an underhand arrangement with the Legion and Universal Shipping respectively. The former gives us a great deal of equipment and most likely training, while the latter provides us with material support in the form of basic resources needed for operation. Universal is also our extension into Liberty politics as I highlighted above. Both these relations have existed for years now and have been represented as such.
Regarding my question for resources.
I actually legit forgot your secret alliance with USI. Yeah, that's the only insight I've got so far from this, aside from other small details.
I'm not denying any growth within Xeno movement, but I legit doubt this to be so rapid.
TL;DR: People are born, people die. It's the circle of life.
EDIT: Regarding the ancient feedback thread, I think it's more relevant to post here, as you are applying for officialdom, and any recent feedback would be of more relevance here. After either gaining/failing the OF status, these posts can be moved/merged to the aforementioned ancient feedback thread.
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I'm glad to see XA- around again. I'll push back against Lyth and say that I'm glad to see that you're accepting the vanilla lore a bit more, and I hope to interact with you quite a bit both as =LSF= and Synth|.
Best of luck to you guys, everything I see here is solid.
Something also worth noting (Most recent developments are obviously not included, as we have not been official for them, speaking of the Order trade agreement, further agreements with Corsairs like exclusivity for TBH and cardamine stuff) is that Xenos now have an actual solid source of income in the way of the artifact trade and have had it for some time. We aren't simply reliant on what we yoink and sell on zoner bases nor are we entirely reliant on USI funding and support. Unfortunately, our plans for mining were basically retconned with the removal of our guard system. Come to think of it, Order relations were readily accepted by development when talk of a different ship was brought up so probably factor that in.
Rogues/LH both have smuggling/piracy, we simply have smuggling with kemwer munitions and artifacts. So yes, we are not going to be getting anything crazy like our own gunboat or cruiser as things stand. However, Xenos do have notable revenue streams now that would justify at the very least a fighter I feel. This is not a Xeno Battleship that's completely unobtainable.
Regarding enemies, yes pretty much everything shoots us. There is one minor thing that tends to be overlooked, though. Navy will overlook Xenos in a few circumstances and have for quite some time. Can't tell you how many times I've informally allied with the LN over the years to shoot up rogues, LH, OCs, RM, etc and had them look the other way. Can't tell you how many times I've gone to hunt some pirates on my Xeno and had officials and indies alike leave me alone after I communicate that. Other lawfuls are a different story but, historically, LN is usually quite happy to leave Xenos alone if given a good reason. Other unlawfuls certainly can't say they've been left alone by the might of the Liberty navy on a frequent basis.
Now of course you may say that is simply in-game but I would challenge that with a question. Would you prefer to let someone else throw themselves into a fight and possibly die, or kill them and then the others they were going to fight as well? Xenos have always been used reluctantly as attack dogs and there's some begrudged respect on both sides as a result.
If this is something people wanted to avoid then the Rogues would have a single digit number of personnel. But okay, you only want to hear and acknowledge what you want. Those points stand, you don't have to like them. And neither is it within your authority to invalidate vanilla lore provided by infocards. Every explanation you need is in the essay I provided. You can't run from a House that has taken everything you have, especially when the neighbouring houses are Xenophobic of foreigners themselves.
All of this effectively leads back to selective acknowledgement of lore that caters to your preferences rather than actual and factual counter-argument such as the one I provided. But you seem intent on upholding the notions you sought to clarify. I mean that's no big deal, there are many people here like that. But go back and re-read what I told you. Specifically the first bullet-point about Xeno recruitment. That's the cycle of unlawful life. You get caught or killed, in the case of the former the Xenos come back out with recruits. Which once again you don't have to like, but it is the basic lore of the faction and a trend that has been persisting for decades.
If you wish to find a reference on self-absorbed mentality and an inability to maintain constructive debate look no further than the nearest mirror. Direct future comments to feedback if you want clarifications.
I did not mean to go personal with notions of self absorbed mentality. You are taking it wrong, but again, if you can't take feedback as it is, that's okay.
(05-04-2019, 07:01 PM)Reeves Wrote: No. They're incredibly bitter and hateful of what they've endured at the hands of their own Government and the foreign labour replacing them. These people join the Xenos.
Quote:These people join the *Insert Randomness here* (Tender Hearted persons, injured persons, men, women, people with will to fight back, people too scared to do anything etc etc etc...)
The types of persons existing doesn't make everybody patriotic and wanting to fight back.
I just wanted to highlight, that not every subjugated person will automatically wish to join the Xeno movement, foreigner or not.
All you have highlighted is your logic based on factional growth, you don't take account logical arguments that I have provided. Your notions seem to only indicate that every person wronged will want to join the Xenos.
(05-04-2019, 09:15 PM)Vexykin Wrote: I'm not denying any growth within Xeno movement, but I legit doubt this to be so rapid.
TL;DR: People are born, people die. It's the circle of life.
If you disregard everything I wrote, it seems it's you who did not read my reply.
With this said I'm done, I have nothing else to add.
(05-05-2019, 10:16 AM)Vexykin Wrote: I just wanted to highlight, that not every subjugated person will automatically wish to join the Xeno movement, foreigner or not.
This was not stated. I broke up how the people would filter through the various Liberty unlawful factions. You skimmed over that but did not take recognition of it.
(05-05-2019, 10:16 AM)Vexykin Wrote: logical arguments that I have provided
Saying you don't think something is logical with absolutely no citations or roleplay reasoning other than what you think is not a logical argument. The fact you seek to perpetuate an argument is a clear indicator that you are not here to clarify doubts but instead reinforce your own head-canon and make snarky replies when disagreed with on the basis of vanilla lore. The things you're claiming to be unreasonable could very well be applied to the fact that the Rogues have caps when they face the LN/LPI and LSF who would likely destroy them at every step over the minor nuisance of the Xenos. This is being stated with full incorporation of your logic.
(05-05-2019, 10:16 AM)Vexykin Wrote: If you disregard everything I wrote, it seems it's you who did not read my reply.
I read everything, it's why I'm disagreeing with pretty much everything.
(05-05-2019, 10:16 AM)Vexykin Wrote: I have nothing else to add.
(05-05-2019, 10:34 AM)Reeves Wrote: Saying you don't think something is logical with absolutely no citations or roleplay reasoning other than what you think is not a logical argument.
It was common sense Reeves, your faction is not the only faction the subjugated persons wish to join, nor do they wish to join any movements perhaps.
Taking this to PMs for further clarification, I'm not interested in your sarcasm and passive-aggressiveness over forums. I'm not here to do that.