' Wrote:And for that reason alone, bounties are in short order.
We don't simply enforce our laws within a set vicinity of the mining station. Every square inch of Sigma-13 and most of 19 are under GMG control. 30k or 70k, no matter.
If you'll assist pirates or smugglers in any way, you'll be treated as such. It's nothing personal, just how it works.
Therin lies the problem between you two, I say. The GMG does not control "Every square inch of Sigma space." Simply put, you control the gas you mine, and that is all. You don't have the authority, nor the willpower to control anything else. Why should you want to? You have enough trouble maintaining your fields and searching for new ones in Omicron Beta as it is.
Looking into the Sigmas, we can look at a couple of substantial landmarks you say you own that you don't own:
Luxury Liner Hawaii & the nearby planet
The Sigma-17 Jump Gate
Helgoland Station
Yanagi Debris Field
Now, by what you say, you have the authority to police those areas. Shortly put, I'm sure Orbital Spa and Cruise and Samura would be quite angry at you for attempting such a thing.
The same thing goes for Sigma-13. From what I understand, you should show little interest in the well-being of Helgoland Station, partially because you don't make any money from helping them substantially, and partially because they don't ask for much help, being inconspicuous and all. The only things you should really care about in those areas are your gas miners, which are your lifeblood. Patrolling through those areas should be paramount, however, the other regions of Sigma-13 shouldn't be all that troubling.
Aside from the fact that you don't leave Naha (Haven't had the time to test that, yet) and the fact that you seem to believe you hold sovereignty over what is clearly an independent zone, you're all a nice bunch of people, and I'm quite happy that you are on this server. Also, come and trade in Kyushu or the near Taus, sometime. I'm sure we'll share some interesting dialogue.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
Funny, I never said anything about controlling all Sigma-19, did I? False quotes are fun.
Sigma-13 is fully controlled by the GMG. The ALG and Junkers were allowed to set up shop to clear out the carcasses of the RM fleet. Which is a joke, really, seeing as the 80-Years-War happened a hell of a long time ago.
Sigma-19, we control Ogashawa, and the field around it. Nothing more.
Quote:Simply put, you control the gas you mine, and that is all. You don't have the authority, nor the willpower to control anything else.
Simply put, no. That's not our RP, nor the faction's stance.
Quote:Aside from the fact that you don't leave Naha (Haven't had the time to test that, yet) and the fact that you seem to believe you hold sovereignty over what is clearly an independent zone
One, we don't only sit at Naha anymore, and the point is kind of ridiculous, seeing as we had perhaps 5 or 6 members in the faction, and Sigma-13 <strike>is</strike> was a SNAFU 24/7.
And no, as I said, Sigma-13 is not an independent zone. 19? Sure. If you want to call it that though, go for it.
' Wrote:Funny, I never said anything about controlling all Sigma-19, did I? False quotes are fun.
Sigma-13 is fully controlled by the GMG. The ALG and Junkers were allowed to set up shop to clear out the carcasses of the RM fleet. Which is a joke, really, seeing as the 80-Years-War happened a hell of a long time ago.
Sigma-19, we control Ogashawa, and the field around it. Nothing more.
Simply put, no. That's not our RP, nor the faction's stance.
One, we don't only sit at Naha anymore, and the point is kind of ridiculous, seeing as we had perhaps 5 or 6 members in the faction, and Sigma-13 <strike>is</strike> was a SNAFU 24/7.
And no, as I said, Sigma-13 is not an independent zone. 19? Sure. If you want to call it that though, go for it.
Well, sir, a simple "You misread me" would have been sufficient.
You let the Junkers into Sigma-13? I have heard contradictory evidence to that, but I don't quite have enough of a knowledge base about the Junkers to argue it. The ALG, you're right about, but, is it really in your best interest to protect them that much? I don't believe the GMG to have a benevolent agenda...
Also, Ogashawa is not
' Wrote:most of 19
as you seem to have edited out. Good of you to realize the mistake, however, taking responsibility is something everyone should take for their actions.
Onto your offense taken at Naha, I said the things about Naha from what I knew, and I had also stated that I haven't been able to check on you for a good while, and I had even invited you over to Kyushu to share a good bit of RP, since I don't tend to see you often. Thank you for taking that hostilely, it means a lot to me.
Sigma-13 is an Independent Zone, you know. You may have military authority there because no one else feels a need to poke their head in, however, the KNF has authority over you, and they maintain the stance that it is an independent zone. If they feel the need to stick their head in, you have to answer to them. You are not a sovereign house, you are a corporation, one that houses itself in Honshu. If the KNF finds it prudent to investigate your activities, you have to answer to them. Because of them, you are what you are and you have what you have, you cannot deny that. They are your keepers and the distributors of your lifeblood, you can't live without them, just like you seem to think Sirius can't live without you. Because of this, it is in independent zone, a border world. You do not hold the sovereignty nor the militaristic power to keep Sigma-13 without the KNF holding guardianship over you. As such, it is an independent zone, and nothing more until Kusari claims it.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
Quote:The ALG, you're right about, but, is it really in your best interest to protect them that much? I don't believe the GMG to have a benevolent agenda...
As far as I know, and believe, we don't protect them. We shouldn't even like them, and after such a long time after the war, and with the fact that the Yanagi should be fairly clean from two factions focusing on it for centuries, they really shouldn't even be there anymore. But that's a modding issue, and an ALG player issue as well, that can't really be addressed.
Quote:as you seem to have edited out. Good of you to realize the mistake, however, taking responsibility is something everyone should take for their actions.
Yes, it was an accidental remark. I well know that Sigma-19 is under a form of control by numerous others, I just wasn't thinking when I typed that, apologies.
Quote:Onto your offense taken at Naha, I said the things about Naha from what I knew, and I had also stated that I haven't been able to check on you for a good while, and I had even invited you over to Kyushu to share a good bit of RP, since I don't tend to see you often. Thank you for taking that hostilely, it means a lot to me.
Well, we seldom have reason to go to Kyushu. Probably might be able to run past there on a trade run or two, but not much more. Sorry.
Didn't take anything as hostile. It's just that you'd said that before, and it's asking a little much, seeing as Sigma-13 is, or was, what it is. We still got ganked sitting at the Naha. But as I said, we'll be doing more now that we have more members and such.
Quote:Sigma-13 is an Independent Zone, you know. You may have military authority there because no one else feels a need to poke their head in, however, the KNF has authority over you, and they maintain the stance that it is an independent zone. If they feel the need to stick their head in, you have to answer to them. You are not a sovereign house, you are a corporation, one that houses itself in Honshu. If the KNF finds it prudent to investigate your activities, you have to answer to them. Because of them, you are what you are and you have what you have, you cannot deny that. They are your keepers and the distributors of your lifeblood, you can't live without them, just like you seem to think Sirius can't live without you. Because of this, it is in independent zone, a border world. You do not hold the sovereignty nor the militaristic power to keep Sigma-13 without the KNF holding guardianship over you. As such, it is an independent zone, and nothing more.
Agree to disagree. I can see how you might reason that, but I just see it another way. We were part of Kusari, yes, and still have a base in Honshu, and offices on the planet. But think, the GMG and Rheinland went to war. Did the KNF do anything there? No, the GMG did it all themselves. They aren't a trading corporation, in use, either. They're a guild. A guild that set up shop where no one else was, and has been there, enforcing laws (contraband policies) and even fighting wars for their territory and resources. That's how an independent system works? Not in my opinion. The GMG doesn't answer to the KNF, they have under the table dealing with their mortal enemies. And if the KNF knew about that? Would they attack, asserting their sovereignty? Speculation, but Rheinland, one of the most militaristic and powerful houses in Sirius, failed a full scale war. Kusari receives H-Fuel from the GMG, so why would they risk a war? A losing war, even. This "You do not hold the sovereignty nor the militaristic power to keep Sigma-13 without the KNF holding guardianship over you." is confounding, since the GMG already have done this. And that doesn't say anything of that, if the GMG did indeed answer to the KNF, why Kusari and Rheinland continue to hold chummy relations with each other. If the GMG was a Kusarian corporation such as Samura or Kishiro, another house going into a selfish war with one of them would spark the KNF to fight back. So why are Kusari and Rheinland neutral at worst? What would the standing be if the RM attacked Samura? That goes to show that Kusari, while friendly with the GMG for business and ethnicity reasons, clearly separate themselves from the GMG.
But I doubt you'll change that opinion, so I don't see much more reason in debating this. It's fairly futile, anyways, since it doesn't involve the faction in use, much.
' Wrote:Agree to disagree. I can see how you might reason that, but I just see it another way. We were part of Kusari, yes, and still have a base in Honshu, and offices on the planet. But think, the GMG and Rheinland went to war. Did the KNF do anything there? No, the GMG did it all themselves. They aren't a trading corporation, in use, either. They're a guild. A guild that set up shop where no one else was, and has been there, enforcing laws (contraband policies) and even fighting wars for their territory and resources. That's how an independent system works? Not in my opinion. The GMG doesn't answer to the KNF, they have under the table dealing with their mortal enemies. And if the KNF knew about that? Would they attack, asserting their sovereignty? Speculation, but Rheinland, one of the most militaristic and powerful houses in Sirius, failed a full scale war. Kusari receives H-Fuel from the GMG, so why would they risk a war? A losing war, even. This "You do not hold the sovereignty nor the militaristic power to keep Sigma-13 without the KNF holding guardianship over you." is confounding, since the GMG already have done this.
But I doubt you'll change that opinion, so I don't see much more reason in debating this. It's fairly futile, anyways, since it doesn't involve the faction in use, much.
Rheinland failed because they could not strike at your heart at Amouri, and that is how the KNF assisted you. Rheinland could not risk a war with Kusari at the time, and that is what won you the war, a safehaven in a neutral zone. If Rheinland so wished, they could have completely destroyed you in Honshu, however, that would entail them going to war with Kusari as well, as they had invaded sovereign Kusari space. That is how the KNF has helped you. They knew that, and in choosing not to act, they won you the war at great gain to Kusari and no loss to Kusari.
Like I said, the GMG hold militaristic sovereignty over Sigma-13 because the KNF don't see it pressing to stick their nose in. They are better a better trained, bigger, and professional military force, if they feel that you are abusing your relationship, supplanting you wouldn't be hard. Samura is envious of you, which is quite obvious. Of the political gains Kishiro has made, the gas rights are the foremost. If the KNF didn't like the way you operated and you refused to change, it would be Samura mining the gas, or there would be no one mining gas. It would only be a matter of time for that to happen if Kusari thought you abusive, and you know that, though they are better pilots then an average corporation's security wing (Maybe mercenary grade), the GMG cannot withstand a real attack from the KNF.
You rely too heavily on Kusari to have the sovereignty over Sigma-13, and you rely, again, on Kusari in militaristic terms. You do not hold the authority to claim Sigma-13. As such, it is an independent zone.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
Quote:Rheinland failed because they could not strike at your heart at Amouri, and that is how the KNF assisted you. Rheinland could not risk a war with Kusari at the time, and that is what won you the war, a safehaven in a neutral zone. If Rheinland so wished, they could have completely destroyed you in Honshu, however, that would entail them going to war with Kusari as well, as they had invaded sovereign Kusari space. That is how the KNF has helped you. They knew that, and in choosing not to act, they won you the war at great gain to Kusari and no loss to Kusari.
That's great interpreting, but how exactly do you plan to prove this theory? "If Rheinland so wished, they could have completely destroyed you"? Somehow that's how it is, even though Rheinland failed, while having the largest military fleet in Sirius at the time? A massive part of their fleet was turned into the Yanagi, the GMG knew the terrain better, and had the advantage of experience. Rheinland was at a loss, and the GMG took advantage of Kusari's neutrality, but you still haven't told me what would happen if Samura had their mining facilities in Sigma-13. The outcome would have undoubtedly been swift response from the KNF. Why?
Because that's what Samura is. A house corporation. Something that the GMG, simply, is not. For that reason, Kusari leaves them alone in their territory. A territory that they control with their experience, operations, and combat prowess. If you want to call it independent, go for it. That's not how it plays out through usage but sure. You could speculate anything away from claims of ownership. The Rogue's Cassini, you could speculate could be taken down by Liberty forces any time, same with the Badlands. Yet we don't call those areas independent space, do we?
Some may agree with you, but this is all speculative opinion. Not fact.
Quote:the GMG cannot withstand a real attack from the KNF.
Which is another speculative opinion, which I find funnier than the war with Rheinland. The KNF is as unknown to the Crow Nebula and its nature as Rheinland was. On top of that, Rheinland's military was the strongest military fleet in all of Sirius at the time. Kusari? That's a joke. They're locked in a blood feud with another superpower, Bretonia. You think that they could take on the now well established, experienced, and trained GMG combat divisions? If you say so.
I've heard your side. I'd like to hear someone else's now, if possible.
I do believe you should first read what I wrote and what you wrote to answer your first question. Why do you think the war lasted 80 years? What took the strongest military force in the sector Eighty Years to fight a small guild? They could not strike at you at your heart, where you had a safe haven to strike and return to. If the GMG had such an advantage, why did they not strike at Frankfurt being so safe in Sigma-13?
Simply put, Rheinland could not afford to fight Kusari. Maybe it was diplomacy, maybe it was economics, maybe it was the fact that Kusari could strike at their supply lines through Sigma-13, like the GMG did. I don't know, because the ingame lore isn't clear about it, but I think that in this day and age, everyone should know that war is not just about PEW PEW! I HAZ BIGGER GUNZ! Rheinland could not strike at Amouri, and so the GMG had a place from which to strike at Rheinland in safety. That is why you won the war. If you think that Naha stood in the same place the entire time, you are truly delusional.
Do you think that the Badlands are so easily penetrated? You think that the Liberty navy could just stroll on in and destroy Buffalo? You are crazy if you believe that. The Rogues are in the Badlands because it is the one place in New York safe from the Liberty Navy. Capital Ships cannot operate in the Badlands, and scanners and radios are all but nullified within the cloud of dark matter and electrical storms. If you would read the rumors, the Liberty Navy focuses on patrolling around the field, not inside it, containing the threat, because it is easier than attempting to nullify it. Patrol 23 is the remnant of the last patrol the Navy tried to send into the Badlands, and it's a memory that Liberty is not soon to forget.
You seem to think the KNF incompetent fools, really. Driving you into the gas clouds is the smartest thing they could do. Imagine this:
Kusari seizes Amouri and declares war on the GMG. Assuming by some miracle, your "well established, experienced, and trained GMG combat divisions" fend off professional Kusari capital ships and combat wings, Kishiro ceases transporting H-Fuel at the threat of having their entire corporation nationalized and absorbed into Samura for being traitorous, cutting off the GMGs lifeblood, and the GMG has no monetary influx. What do the GMG have then? They can keep their clouds, because Rheinland won't buy from you. They mine H-Fuel from Mannheim and further refine it from Deuterium on Holstein. Neither of the houses will allow the GMG to move H-Fuel through their house. You cannot sell it to any other house because of proximity.
What do the GMG have then? Their clouds? Leave them, you can't do anything with them. What do you do? Surrender and be absorbed into Samura? Join the BD and GC in their life of piracy and terrorism to continue your fight? Disband and watch your "heritage" be picked up by Samura?
You rely on Kusari, if not in a militaristic sense, which is laughable, you do in an economic sense. Without Kusari, you are useless. You do not have the ability, nor machinery to massively move your H-Fuel, and Rheinland is too proud to do so for you. You are the reason they are in their own economic mess, they won't help you. None of the other houses have the will to help you, because you are inconsequential to them. Quoting Dune: "The gas must flow" (;)), and that is all that matters to them, whether it is you, Samura, or Kruger doing the mining.
Furthermore, do you think the KNF doesn't know about the gas fields? It's a lesson they learned from watching the 80-Years-War, just as Rheinland learned it during the 80-Years-War. No modern military is the equivalent of Imperial Britain (Red = Camouflage! :crazy:), and in the same way, no Sirius military is the equivalent to Imperial Rheinland.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
More speculation. The GMG does not make all of their money off Kusari, Kishiro has a contract, not a monopoly.
If it came to war between Kusari and the GMG, which is hilarious to even suggest, the KNF does not have the means. They're at full scale war with Bretonia. If they attacked the GMG (lulz), they would die. Not from the GMG, obviously, from Bretonia. Plain and simple. Not to mention... there goes the main import of fuel, Samura better get cracking in Hokkaido. But they might think "Sigma-13, while completely policed, resourced, and protected by the GMG, is independent, because we have relations with the GMG and are stronger. We could even take them down.". I don't see the logic in this. Friendly organizations, one is stronger, so the weaker one's space and operational zone is considered independent? I don't think that's the definition of the word independent. Look at the IMG, the closest thing to the GMG, and see the clear differences. They have bases here and there, flung across Sirius, sitting along with BMM, Zoner, and even Outcast bases. They're the definition of an independent worlds dwelling faction. The GMG has three non guard bases, one of which they allow two other factions bases (which as said, is a joke). Yes, they have a strong reliance on Kusari, I don't debate that, but how does it make Sigma-13 an independent system? Because they have an important relationship with Kusari? Because they relied and rely on Kusari? I think quite a few factions rely on another, yet their space is still called... their space.
Then we come to shipping of fuel. The Zoners, one of our strongest allies, also ship it. Liberty buys it, the IMG buys it, etc etc. Kusari is making the income of profit outstanding, sure. Could they manage fine without Kusari now? Absolutely.
But again, that comes to this ridiculous notion of symbiosis that could result in war? Because two factions are tied, both of them relying on one another, one being stronger as regards military; and the weaker is inherently living in a space that they police, feed off of, defend, etc; and this half of the necessary alliance has their space called independent. Don't get me wrong, I don't really care if a faction that I play's space is called house, owned, BW, IW, or any space for that matter. It's just that this idea doesn't make sense. Most of what you say, yes, but as for labeling of Sigma-13, no idea when the definition that is seen in usage changed.
I love this speculation about whether the GMG or KNF is stronger, when all things considered there won't ever be a confrontation... because the KNF are a security force of a nation who very much enjoys it's position as the sole middleman in the distribution of fuel for the entirety of civilised space while putting exactly or close to nil money into it.
So lets have a view at the other side of the picture: just like the GMG are dependent on Kusari, so does Kusari benefit from the GMG being there and striking contracts with one of the two main Kusari corporations. The GMG itself is wealthy enough to not worry about Samura's usual below-the-belt kicks and jabs, because it doesn't go "OMG U DONT LIKE US, WE PEW YOU", but because of it's influence by proxy (through Kishiro) inside the Kusari government itself, as well as it's own dealings with Kusari's unlawful groups. So GMG is in a way a Kusari organisation.
However, the GMG also governs itself like a small house despite the fact that the majority of it's members live either on Aomori (not Amouri btw:P) or have their homes on Planet Honshu itself, and simply go on to work on the gas miners for months at a time before coming back for shore leave (kind of like how working on modern oil platforms looks like). That is because they have managed to get the Kusari government to recognise their protectorate over Sigma-13 and other systems encompassing the Crow Nebula that are adjacent to Kusari, which is the reason why KNF does not send their patrols into that area and why Samura and Kishiro need to talk to the GMG to handle the gas they mine. This of course benefits Kusari as well, because they don't need to waste pilots on security of areas vital to their economy.
So Sigma-13 is all things considered a GMG protectorate. Yes, the entire system. Proof can be deduced from this news item below:
Note that this is a vanilla rumour, therefore...:P
I think not. As said directly in that rumor you so kindly quoted, the GMG are planning and array of warning satellites around jump holes in Sigma-13. Why would they make warning satellites if they plan on just patrolling and raiding those jump holes? The rumor itself shows that GMG is not making military actions at those jump holes.
Lastly, show me a rumor or news report that says GMG hates cardamine and its smugglers.. Because from what I can tell, they don't care one way or another, and they also aren't willing to waste military patrols on stopping smuggling when they need everything they can get to combat the Corsairs and Outcasts.