And the question we keep asking is "is that going to do anything?" because you have in the past posted that this change is going to happen as stated and there s nothing we can do.
Because if there's a chance we'll make one, you can bet on that.
[5:24:48 PM] Troy Martin (Kazinsal): Bob and Max asked for a formally presented proposition, correct?
[5:24:59 PM] S. R. ekki fyrirtæki þitt: by the faction leaders
[5:25:15 PM] S. R. ekki fyrirtæki þitt: a final, official manifest of lore and justification by the leaders of the factions
[5:25:37 PM] S. R. ekki fyrirtæki þitt: and even IF it comes - its only something for us to maybe consider - not to change our minds
[5:25:47 PM] S. R. ekki fyrirtæki þitt: but if it does blow our minds - and changes our view - so be it
I personally find this endeavor to be a bit of a farce.
By and large, our official factions do not use our capital ships, so why would they have much, if any, lore that references them, let alone lays out justification for them?
And the people who do use them, the indies, seem to have no voice in the decision other than posting their personal thoughts in threads like these. Most of them likely have no idea this is even going on.
My beloved faction is going to hell in a handbasket and I am powerless to stop it. All I can do is watch the people who may have the power fumble it over and over.
(03-09-2014, 02:47 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: The development team members who were involved with negotiations with the Zoner faction leaders requested a final, official manifest of lore and justification for the construction of heavy capital vessels and warships by the Zoners as a faction.
Gentlemen. For the n-th, no n is not enough, let's say “k”: for the k-th time:
As I have told both of you (Kaz and Max) on several occasions: There is no such thing as “complete list of Battleship RP”, as this would imply a “proof of non-existence” of unlisted elements, which in empirical science is accepted to be impossible.
On the same note: We know and have proof of rage-redacted RP of the Omicroner. Proof has been sent to you, Max, as you have implied me to be a liar, by pointing out the impossibility of such a thing. Yet neither acknowledgment or apology has been received so far. However the fact that the renarration on the forum is deleted, this does not retconn or redact the ingame events, given the fact that in today’s RP, the currently active factions do get reminded inRP about these events by the other involved parties.
However, this is our main point: Not even we – the leader of the official Zoner factions – can predict what effect a retconning of the capital ship line would have on player-driven RP. We have given you, what we know to be true and proven by forum RP, and I dare say, already this small portion, which you can understand as a “best case scenario of retconned RP” is quite bad, as it affects several pasts conflicts and engagements including Zoner capital ships.
To deny this, due to a formality, is denying the very core of the problem: This change – despite being named differently – is effectively a retcon.
While the other Leaders are still debating the very Issue of “plausible lore”. I do contest this very Idea, because the Zoners are but one of many factions which capital ship line is not supported by lore. However, as I have pointed out several times already, there are other factions, who's capital ships are not only not supported by lore, but their lore actually contradicts a capital ship line.
Consequently my efforts on this front will be minimal until all factions are held to the same standard.
We have been concessive towards Devs and Admins, including nerfing of a ship, which is already unusable in PvP, SRP only for Zoner Capships, and whatnot. In everything that Gytrash has originally posted would be proof for that too, but it appears as though many people do prefer to keep things secret, fearing that, what has actually transpired, contradicts what they may or may not have said about the other party.
I have never sworn at or ridiculed, a Dev or Admin by intention, and if someone felt offended by my words, I wish to apologize, however, not without noting, that offense is duly taken, not given.
(03-09-2014, 03:47 AM)Xylo Wrote: Still waiting on links to your pastel pink-maned pony OSI-zoner RP.
I want to read it, seriously.
I don't think that I ever did anything on the forums with Fluttershy, I think I tried her out iname and her shy personality didn't allow for much interaction and any meaningful RP would ave been closed down because she would have been too shy to respond to anything.
(03-09-2014, 03:33 AM)Major_Mayhem Wrote: ...
On the same note: We know and have proof of rage-redacted RP of the Omicroner. Proof has been sent to you, Max, as you have implied me to be a liar, by pointing out the impossibility of such a thing. Yet neither acknowledgment or apology has been received so far. However the fact that the renarration on the forum is deleted, this does not retconn or redact the ingame events, given the fact that in today’s RP, the currently active factions do get reminded inRP about these events by the other involved parties.
...
False. I did not state any impossibilities, merely that it was unlikely and denied by Jinx, whose words I have no basis to doubt. It is not something I could consider to be a valid complaint without definitive proof.
If you are referring to the image that <redacted>* was sending me, I requested it to be re-sent as I did not receive the file properly.
* Is that you? I've lost track of the Zoner players who have been contacting me (or not). It'd be so much easier to negotiate if you elected a figurehead to talk on your behalf. (Not Gytrash - he rants and rages too much.)
Edit: I have received the picture, which is not conclusive evidence on its own.
Edit 2:
Quote:There is no such thing as “complete list of Battleship RP”, as this would imply a “proof of non-existence” of unlisted elements, which in empirical science is accepted to be impossible.
I do not believe that, at any stage, we have specified any sort of arbitrary length for this document. We have merely asked for anything and everything that you are able to produce. If quantity is not your ally, then choose quality, through detailed explanations (and analysis, if necessary).
Even if specific posts were erased in the past, this does not mean the threads they are in cannot be presented as evidence along with some description of the thread's context, which should hopefully become apparent by guaging the responses of other posts in those threads. In other words, explain what roleplay was occuring there, even if you cannot show it explicitly.
Quote:This change – despite being named differently – is effectively a retcon.
I have already explained that this is not a retcon, despite me inadvertently suggesting it might be early on in the Skype discussion with some of the Zoners. I later clarified that was not the case somewhere on the forums.
In your first example, we are shown a situation where a Corsair fleet blockades Freeport 9 in order suppress and expel Outcast and anti-Corsair Zoners and Freelancers from their territory. While there are references to Zoner Jinkusus, there are no instances of them being explicitly referred to as battleships. There is indication that changing the class of the Jinkusu-now-Nephilim from battleship to battletransport (a purely gameplay-orientated change) would retcon this blockade from having occurred, or even from Zoners having participated in hostile actions, since the Nephilim will still be an armed and armoured vessel.
In the second example, a TAZ Aquilon (a multi-role carrier vessel) opens fire on a GRN squadron that it perceives as violating their sacred territory. Similarly, this act of territorial defence is irrelevant to what class of ship the Aquilon is; however, the outcome of a random skirmish would not have any impact on overall lore on its own. If that situation had escalated into full combat, the outcome would come down to PvP balancing and the skill of the players piloting the ships; for example, this is why "raids" often (but not always) are ignored in terms of the progression of canonical lore.
Quote:While the other Leaders are still debating the very Issue of “plausible lore”. I do contest this very Idea, because the Zoners are but one of many factions which capital ship line is not supported by lore. However, as I have pointed out several times already, there are other factions, who's capital ships are not only not supported by lore, but their lore actually contradicts a capital ship line.
Consequently my efforts on this front will be minimal until all factions are held to the same standard.
Many factions did not have the capabilities to build, operate, or maintain capital ships in vanilla, but this does not rule out the possibilities for those factions to expand in the future. This expansion is the basis for those capital ships now existing, albeit this expansion has occured at a rate ten times faster than it should have been realistically. However, out of all the factions that now have capital ships, the Devs feel that only the Zoners having capitals is an outright contradiction of the faction's vanilla lore. Due to both the relative youth and general neutrality of the Zoner movement, it is entirely inappropriate for them to have vessels that have equivalence to the most sophisticated ships operated by House militaries; the Outcasts and Corsairs are miniature Houses in their own right. Consider that the GMG players, whose vanilla lore explicitly stated a preference for fighter craft, but could conceivably afford and construct larger combat vessels, refused the offer of capital ship models / listed on their ID (which would bring them in line with the other two big, powerful Guilds).
Your choice not to be involved in this process does not concern me, as there are others willing to negotiate. However, you cannot blame us for not giving you the opportunity to argue against it, particularly if you find the outcome unfavourable.
Quote:We have been concessive towards Devs and Admins, including nerfing of a ship, which is already unusable in PvP, SRP only for Zoner Capships, and whatnot. In everything that Gytrash has originally posted would be proof for that too, but it appears as though many people do prefer to keep things secret, fearing that, what has actually transpired, contradicts what they may or may not have said about the other party.
I think that "being concessive" is not the right attitude to bring to the table here. This is an extremely self-entitled perspective.
Anything that the Developers want kept secret will be kept to our own Skype chat and dev forum. It is simply proper forum etiquette to seek the permission of involved individuals before copying Skype logs onto the forums. However, on a similar note, I am quite confused as to why this thread was posted in the first place (which could be construed as a criticism of the Development team, given the context of many of Gytrash's recent posts on the topic). While RedEclipse is not online right now for me to check with, I am posting the following lines from a private discussion I had with him, under the assumption that all of the Zoner leaders are aware of it (or at least should be).
[6/03/2014 8:23:11 AM] RedEclipse: Hey there. Got a question, what devs will think if we will agree on proposed devs changes, but make Nephlim AND Aquilon SRP available?
[6/03/2014 8:23:52 AM] RedEclipse: I think we can agree on that, and looks to be a fair consensus for everyone
[6/03/2014 8:34:22 AM] RedEclipse: no more zoner caps flying everywhere, no more zoner drama and it'll demilitarize generic Zoners, I gues it's devs goal. But, while I adore Neph, I cannot accept first Jinx proposal because - TAZ tied to Aquilon. I understand devs point, but vice versa - hear us with this idea and you will find support from all zoner factions. We need SRP availability of Nephilim and Aquilon
[6/03/2014 2:58:54 PM] Max (Echo 7-7): I think we could work with that, or at the very least I think it's a reasonable enough request to bring to discussion.
[6/03/2014 3:00:10 PM] Max (Echo 7-7): Also, while the designs are associated with the Zoner subfactions, bear in mind that like any other ship in the mod, you can't prevent people from SRP'ing their own.
[7/03/2014 2:20:07 AM] RedEclipse: Yes, of course
[7/03/2014 2:21:15 AM] RedEclipse: This consensus looks to be a thing for which we have been fought. Though, sad let leviathan go
[7/03/2014 2:22:09 AM] RedEclipse: Although, Nephilim is excellent ship for Phoenix with all means
[7/03/2014 2:22:43 AM] RedEclipse: By the way, if they changes will be approved by both parties, can we rework Livadia design together?
[7/03/2014 2:22:57 AM] RedEclipse: to reflect changes
[7/03/2014 2:26:23 AM] Max (Echo 7-7): [Friday, 7 March 2014 2:22 AM] RedEclipse: <<< can we rework Livadia design
Contact me regarding this after Update 6, as that patch will include cosmetic and layout changes to Omicron-74.
[7/03/2014 2:28:34 AM] RedEclipse: Alright, I'll bump you later then. Will be happy to take part in designing 74 too
[7/03/2014 4:52:36 AM] RedEclipse: So I had a little bit more chat with zoner guys
[7/03/2014 4:52:55 AM] RedEclipse: OSI and CW officialy are agreed on my proposal
[7/03/2014 4:53:14 AM] RedEclipse: TAZ is not yet, but will - as leader will be online
[8/03/2014 9:32:11 AM] RedEclipse: Hey, so TAZ agreed on this proposal too
[8/03/2014 9:32:55 AM] RedEclipse: So sum up - all zoner factions would like to see this changes implied into mod
[8/03/2014 9:33:56 AM] RedEclipse: And now I'm curious - did devs are come on decision about this proposal?
After that, the Dev team had since been effectively figuring out the finer technical points of this proposal, as we felt that we had reached (or were approaching) an agreement between both parties. I have since not been able to get back to RedEclipse on this point, as we have not been online simultaneously. However, his latest message to me after these logs indicates a negatively changed attitude because of the cosmetic and gameplay system changes (by me) in Omicron-74 - which, believe it or not, are entirely unrelated to this matter of changing the capital ships. (It had been on my to-do list for a few months, but it ended up being done at the same time as all the other Omicron system work.)
Therefore, if the Zoner leadership has reached consensus regarding their preferences for the upcoming gameplay and cosmetic changes to Zoner ships, presenting a comprehensive document on the roleplay of Zoner battleships would become redundant. If that is not the case, though, then such a document would be necessary to support an alternative request.
I know how badly the devteam wants to be right and not reverse their decisions all the time, but anything that bleeds the server of players is detrimental, even if they are players whose viewpoints you do not necessarily agree with.