Quote:An example of this was GNG utilizing Rogues Snubs and guns hand in hand with a RH GB and Brigand GB which is a nightmare to kill in the hands of a good TS'r. Brigand GB plus GB solarises is a superior anti snub / anti gb rig.
You're stuck in the past too much. GNG doesn't fly Ascos, but flies one of the slowest Gunboats (Heimdal and Imperator) and you still have problems with it,right?
So yes, what if we didn't have "GNG" tag, but flew all those mixed IDed ships/techs in one group, like we use to have before we added |GNG at the end of our nicks?
You have a hessian and corsair gbs in GNG? So how did sairs come to give you their gb if you roll in their mortal enemies ships also? That's even more dumb than other things that have happened and shows zero grasp of RP if that is true...
And yes I have seen you flying an Asco?
If you use no tag then technically you can have multi ids in your group as long ss individuals can work together. If one had rh ID and the other Sair well they are gonna get sanctioned...
Maybe it would useful to come with some other possible set of Rules that would define a Faction.
I might be able to see it working with the Generic IDs but can see how it poses big problems with the Faction IDs.
I then could have a BMM ID/IFFed Miner working with The GMS Tag and claim that he was captured at the fall of Leeds and has since agreed to work instead of being interned. It opens up a big can of worms.
'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
Well a solution can be that faction ids can only be provided by the official factions or if faction isn't official anymore from admins to indies like it also was discussed for caps once. Similar like the official faction ids. Even though that might be a bit to hard in my opinion.
I believe that the main reason that unofficial factions (a tagged, minimally organized group) are bound by most of the rules that official factions have to follow is mostly for that reason alone. Official factions are by ID and lore to follow a path, and they are encouraged to promote and represent the npc factions they are affiliated.
A hypothetical example: If suddenly you find the Bretonian Armed Forces facing a tagged group consisting of BMM ID ship in line with pirate ID ships flying Corsair tech, it is a possible scenario for players, but an impossible scenario for BAF as a player faction and a lore established entity. How would they deal with it? Would they consider the BMM Id as the guideline to establish their position with this absurd faction, which should be Bretonian citizens then? Would they consider the Pirate Id, even though they would have to outlaw several bretonian accomplices, for crimes they may have or have not been involved? What about the Corsair ships, does it make it a Corsair backed group? Are these corsairs then?
This is the main reason why I believe the "one tag, one Id" rule is in effect for all factions. You could have a majority of freelancers, or pirates, or miners in a group, but the first time a non-generic ID vessel comes into play, it binds everyone perspective of that faction to that faction ID.
I say that there are a few plausible scenarios that can work within the current rules, that may provide a mixed shipline set, within reason:
- A full generic ID faction (freelancers, pirates, whatever), roleplaying their development with the factions and houses, and acquiring their (faction) ships with the producers. Being a freelancer or a pirate does not entitle you to a dragon gunboat or similar, just because you can buy it from their base.
- A faction x group, using that faction ships and roleplay, but developing a splinter faction from the original lore, getting deals with other factions for ship and relationships. Eventually such group would need to get it's own ID to get free from the lore and restrictions of the faction ID they were based on, thus becoming a new official faction of this new hybrid group. In this case, generic ID's in the group are still subordinated to the main non-generic Id.
- flying untagged, an unknown but effective group of collaborating individuals. In here, individual ID rules apply, so even if you find two pirates flying a corsair gb and an outcast bomber respectively, other groups could still respond to the situation as an encounter of pirate 1 and pirate 2, and proceed accordingly.
This is what happens with indie OC supported by rogues in Liberty. They work together, but factions can act considering the OC and the rogues as separate entities acting together on that occasion alone.
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If I have understood correctly the situation on the GNG case, is that their flaw was that they put the generic Pirate Id above any non-generic (Rogue?) Id's their members might have used. those rogues members wouldn't accept to shoot other rogues on behalf of a indie pirate leader in any case, if they were still using a rogue ID.
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TL,DR - With current rules, and for the sake of RP sanity, there cannot be a faction where a non-generic ID is subordinated to a generic one. Once a faction ID is used by a group, the best that group can do is to not go against such ID lore and rules.
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(12-30-2014, 04:06 PM)Black Widow Wrote: If you use no tag then technically you can have multi ids in your group as long ss individuals can work together. If one had rh ID and the other Sair well they are gonna get sanctioned...
(12-30-2014, 04:21 AM)Karst Wrote: Okay, so recently there were a couple cases involving unofficial factions which often attracted considerable drama.
I believe the entire concept of forcing faction rules on an unofficial group that is not seeking officialdom is nonsensical.
The main issue is that there is no reason at all for any group of people that wish to fly together to call themselves a faction in the first place, when this gives them absolutely no additional rights, but tons of additional responsibilities.
For example, let's say I fly a Freelancer ID'd ship that works with some friends of mine flying Corsairs. As long as we don't share a common tag, that's no issue at all, but if we decide to identify ourselves as part of the same group, it would suddenly be a problem because we don't all have the same ID.
And what's the point? Even if I am for all purposes and intents part of their group and never fly without them, a situation which is np np without a tag, the mere addition of a tag with literally no other changes makes it a "faction rule violation".
All that I can see this encouraging is groups not bothering to do forum RP / unofficial faction threads, and flying untagged, since they're essentially being punished with pointless rules for no gain.
For a long time I never thought the faction rule regarding ID's would apply to unofficials. I had never seen it enforced at least. I agree that it makes little sense to enforce faction rules on groups that don't get the perks of being official. They should have to choose 1 to go official, but before that, ID rules already set the guidelines to who can group with who and under what circumstances. As long as those rules are being followed, especially in the case of Freelancers, people should be able to associate freely, even with a tag. However there might be some pushing the limits RP wise that could be looked at on individual basis, and it would be wise to perhaps go with a common IFF. In the end it will be a deterrent for people to want to form unofficial factions, which are the basis for future official factions, if they will be so highly picked apart before even being able to feel out what direction they want to go. Why bother when you can just lose the tag and group based on ID restrictions right?
This is actually part of the reason why I decided to try to hire guys as private 'privateers' with acceptable ID's and IFF's to base what kind of interaction we could have as a group (defend each other etc) and never bothered trying to form another 'pirate' faction, since tags aren't exactly tactically sound and it would put everyone involved under the regulations of not having ID freedom on tagged ships (within reason of their rep, like if a FL turned pirate, or Junker, or Zoner, all of which are independents, with nothing really stopping them from freely grouping).
There are enough faction perks to encourage people to go official. Unofficial factions and their members should at least have the freedom to float a little within reason of their individual reps and ID regulations.
Quote:An example of this was GNG utilizing Rogues Snubs and guns hand in hand with a RH GB and Brigand GB which is a nightmare to kill in the hands of a good TS'r. Brigand GB plus GB solarises is a superior anti snub / anti gb rig.
You're stuck in the past too much. GNG doesn't fly Ascos, but flies one of the slowest Gunboats (Heimdal and Imperator) and you still have problems with it,right?
So yes, what if we didn't have "GNG" tag, but flew all those mixed IDed ships/techs in one group, like we use to have before we added |GNG at the end of our nicks?
You have a hessian and corsair gbs in GNG? So how did sairs come to give you their gb if you roll in their mortal enemies ships also? That's even more dumb than other things that have happened and shows zero grasp of RP if that is true...
If you use no tag then technically you can have multi ids in your group as long ss individuals can work together. If one had rh ID and the other Sair well they are gonna get sanctioned...
1. Have I ever said Corsairs gave me their GB? 2. Do tell me, will I really get sanctioned if I group with Hessians while I'm flying an Imperator with Pirate ID?
You've always directed your attention to the advantages "X" and "Y" IDs/Techs gave us. But now, when your arguments are useless(Because both Heimdal and Imperator are one of the slowest Gunboats, and aren't hard targets), you're directing your attention to -how-ones-obtained-X-gunboat. If you're so interested about it, the next time you meet me ingame, ask me about it... I'm not gonna talk about it here, especially inRP.
P.S If you don't mind asking about it, then go ahead, screen it and report... one more accusation won't really damage me too much.
(12-30-2014, 07:18 PM)TheUnforgiven Wrote: I agree that it makes little sense to enforce faction rules on groups that don't get the perks of being official. They should have to choose 1 to go official, but before that, ID rules already set the guidelines to who can group with who and under what circumstances. As long as those rules are being followed, especially in the case of Freelancers, people should be able to associate freely, even with a tag.
Again, many of you are going off on tangents here. The above is the essence of what I am trying to say.
In the case of multiple IDs working together, there are three possible scenarios:
1.) The cooperation is a violation of ID rules, in the case of IDs that cannot cooperate / are hostile to each other. Tag or no tag, same deal.
This is an example:
(12-30-2014, 06:06 PM)WPeregrine Wrote: A hypothetical example: If suddenly you find the Bretonian Armed Forces facing a tagged group consisting of BMM ID ship in line with pirate ID ships flying Corsair tech, it is a possible scenario for players, but an impossible scenario for BAF as a player faction and a lore established entity.
Whether or not they shared a common tag, it would be an ID violation because BMM "cannot ally with any unlawfuls".
2.) The cooperation is between IDs that can ally, and they are not tagged. No issues.
3.) The cooperation is between IDs that can ally, but they share a tag. Suddenly, it's a "faction rule violation"!
Does this make it clear why this is problematic, since 2. and 3. are identical situations except for a prefix or suffix in the ships' names?
Tagging ships has no purpose except as an INRP identifier. There is nothing to be gained by it, and since any group could simply not do it, why would they if it then makes them an "unofficial faction" that has to follow certain rules they would not have to otherwise?
(12-30-2014, 06:06 PM)WPeregrine Wrote: A hypothetical example: If suddenly you find the Bretonian Armed Forces facing a tagged group consisting of BMM ID ship in line with pirate ID ships flying Corsair tech, it is a possible scenario for players, but an impossible scenario for BAF as a player faction and a lore established entity.
Whether or not they shared a common tag, it would be an ID violation because BMM "cannot ally with any unlawfuls".
What if it were Hogosha+Pirate IDs using Outcast gunboats? Or Xenos+Pirate IDs in Recyclers? I'm sure you can quite easily come up with some fairly ridiculous combinations that would not only cause tension between pirate factions (When those Hogosha-Outcasts meet a Corsair), but also with law enforcement (when those Xeno-Junkers meet pretty much anyone...).
On the other hand, Freelance Miners who maintain a shady wing of Pirates to attack their competition isn't beyond comprehension.