(01-02-2015, 10:17 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: If there is a tagged group using two or more IDs, it is not because there is a double standard. It's because we haven't noticed it yet and stopped it. The one ID per faction rule applies to everyone. If there are any tagged factions/groups using more than one ID, I would suggest fixing that immediately.
As stated here : http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1604701
Tinker & Transport ( so far an unofficial faction ) would like to switch to a single custom tailored ID, but so far I have got the response that that will not be possible.
I and my 2iC Sturm are fully prepared to take the responsibility of leading an official faction if we get the chance and I will gladly answer all questions, send a new or official request or change faction buildup if appropriate, as long as I can get a clear statement what is acceptable and what not.
T&T/ has been in existance for more than 9 months now, and has passed all 3 Core upgrade reviews for Tinkers Haven, our central hub and PoB, while waiting for review on our Core 4 upgrade since early Decembre.
Edit : To speed things up if this is wished :
The Ship named Havens_Bursar containes the 500.000.000 credits required for a request. And Im ready to reply afap to any questions or suggestions.
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I still don't get how it works. Especially if it's for generic factions.
I'm sick of these hidden rules or stuff just NOT being on the rules list. Seriously. It's seriously disturbing how you still have to go hunt down other threads about things http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2334 - Rules List
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1746 - Creating a faction, even if not going for officaldom. They really need to be merged because that's really the admin's loss of how many people are misguided, ESPECIALLY if it's posted under "Offical Requests" - The only way those threads are linked is when Igiss mentions
Quote:All rules and regulations concerning faction creation procedure and home system claiming are listed in Faction Creation Rules
That's only gonna make people think it's for OFFICAL people only. Especially if under "Offical" section
Oh yeah, what was that not allowed to have 2 groups that are *slightly differently* tagged but one using FL and the other pirate? I never saw that written anywhere but apparently I got warned for it. Even if they're not the "same" tag - even though it says the same tag same ID thing, it never said anything about similarities.
Not whining or anything I just get the feeling that this forum is falling into the line of other RP servers, where-as admins are being above the rules and making overly strict rules, especially about ones who are not aiming for "officaldom"...
So why do unofficals have to stick with the strict officaldom rules? Why can't there be more seperated rules? I would have imagined Officals being more stricter but more power
I would imagine that it would be only legal if it was a canon faction ID AND a generic ID but would have to have the same IFF as the main ID, of course the faction's primary ID to base off of would be the canon, and that people using the generic would have to follow the simular guidelines (don't shoot allies, can't shoot ## faction etc)
Quote:When a faction is created, the leader must select an ID and a corresponding IFF for use on every ship within the faction, based on the group's primary role and identity. Factions must also choose one unified tag for their ships upon requesting official status.
Each faction or group can only use one ID. Official factions may request their own ID based on the original ID of their NPC faction, to allow for a more specialized line of roleplay or to remove certain restrictions applied to their original ID, which would require admin approval before implementation. The faction ID can only be requested if the official faction's roleplay as a whole, or the roleplay of a sub-group of the faction can no longer be played out within the allowances of their original ID.
In case of the Player Faction IDs granted to the faction as a whole, the approved ID will become the faction's primary ID and every ship belonging to the faction should be switched to the new ID, and in case of the Player Faction IDs approved to a sub-group within a faction, the ID must only be used within the approved sub-group. In both cases, the official faction will maintain their faction rights over the NPC faction of their IFF.
It is possible for any faction or any group to choose any ID that they like. Including even IDs that already have official faction(s) representing them, however, not all IDs or NPC affiliation will grant full faction rights.
And this:
Quote:I. Process of making an unofficial faction or group
1. Each faction has only one leader. The leader of the faction must also assign at least one second in command
2. Leader should choose an ID and IFF that all members of the group will use on their faction characters.
3. Post your faction idea in the Unofficial Factions and Groups subforum. Ask about others opinions! This will help you on next stage.
How could we believe that the admins had no knowledge of (J/)T&T/ using two tags/IDs all this time? It's documented and discussed all over the community.
Actual problem stems from (you guessed it) POB's. Certain commodities are only available on certain faction bases, meaning that if you don't use an Alt, you simply can't get it. Junkers wouldn't have a source of Optronic arrays as you can only get them in Kusari, Planetform wouldn't dish out Nanomembrane Filters to unlawfuls, and Kruger holds monopoly on Fusion Diodes (just to name a small amount). Until this is all fixed, you will continue to encounter the same problem, the same behaviour, you just won't see it as people will just run alt indies with the duststorm kicked up from this "1 ID" thread. Which actually discourages faction activity.
This was supposed to make factions work together, but with many "ghost" Official factions (and I use the term loosely), players are simply doing it themselves in untagged Serenty's on a FL ID. Total backfire.
(01-02-2015, 10:17 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: If there is a tagged group using two or more IDs, it is not because there is a double standard. It's because we haven't noticed it yet and stopped it. The one ID per faction rule applies to everyone. If there are any tagged factions/groups using more than one ID, I would suggest fixing that immediately.
That's really not the point of this thread. I don't want this to devolve into pointing fingers at factions.
The main issue is the silliness of this system in general as described in the original post.
Starting with basics such as this:
(01-02-2015, 10:40 PM)Nyx Wrote: I still don't get how it works. Especially if it's for generic factions.
I'm sick of these hidden rules or stuff just NOT being on the rules list. Seriously. It's seriously disturbing how you still have to go hunt down other threads about things http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2334 - Rules List http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1746 - Creating a faction, even if not going for officaldom. They really need to be merged because that's really the admin's loss of how many people are misguided, ESPECIALLY if it's posted under "Offical Requests" - The only way those threads are linked is when Igiss mentions
Quote:All rules and regulations concerning faction creation procedure and home system claiming are listed in Faction Creation Rules
How on earth can a group of people that want to play together, take an interest in roleplay and read the rules be expected to find this thread, labelled "faction creation rules", and assume it applies to them when all they're doing is putting some letters and symbols in front of their name?
Edit: Let me elaborate. That thread is found in Discovery RP 24/7 Factions / Faction Rules / Faction Creation Requests / Faction Creation Rules. Absolutely nowhere near the rules section.
Though, that's hardly relevant as it would be equally nonsensical wherever it's posted:
(01-02-2015, 10:40 PM)Nyx Wrote: Oh yeah, what was that not allowed to have 2 groups that are *slightly differently* tagged but one using FL and the other pirate? I never saw that written anywhere but apparently I got warned for it. Even if they're not the "same" tag - even though it says the same tag same ID thing, it never said anything about similarities.
Where do we draw the line here? How little in common do two tags have to have not to fall to this arbitrary rule?
Going back to the T&T/ and J/T&T/ tags, if that's too much, what will they have to do? Will JTnT be enough? JTT?
Irrelevant, anyway. All you're doing is discouraging people from working together with one tag. How much similarity you're willing to tolerate exactly is a meaningless question, since people can just adapt the tags to an acceptable level, which is a bewilderingly stupid, oorp process to force upon a group.
There is no reason whatsoever for any group of players to submit to such arbitrary, pointless rulings when they can just as well not. Forcing "faction creation" rules on a faction is nonsensical when all they gain in return is the right to put some letters in front of their names.
We already have ID rules to take care of oorp alliances. Groups that gain no additional privilege from tagging themselves should not suffer additional rules.
The privilege comes from the multiple IDs, not the tag. I believe the point of the single ID per faction rule is to make factions reach out to other factions that complement them. For example, if you're a mining company you should have mining ships to get ore and make a deal with a shipping company that has cargo ships to haul it away.
The fact that players do everything in their power to circumvent the letter and spirit of the rule is the problem. You aren't *supposed* to be able to do everything with a single ID, that's the point. The ID provides each faction with strengths and weaknesses, which is supposed to result in needs that require the cooperation of other IDs in order to fulfill. Players have and continue to make the choice to act against the spirit of the rules. Tagged or untagged, players are choosing to abuse ooRP knowledge and mechanics for an inRP/inGame benefit instead of pursuing RP.
|nfrared - Yes, certain commodities are unavailable to certain IDs because of the locations they are purchased just like you said. Players of those IDs *could* develop inRP contacts to factions that do have access to the supplies they need, which would stimulate interaction and commerce and RP, but they avoid interaction and run freelancer ID transports to circumvent ID limitations instead. It is the willful decision of players to prioritize their ooRP desires above the RP setting to avoid any interaction they don't want, such as relying on another faction for something they need. PoBs aren't the reason for this, it's how people get capships and other toys too. The difference is that the capships and other toys don't require constant upkeep that prolongs the behavior.
I'm going to repeat and bold the last, with asterisks and center alignment and color.
***PoBs aren't the reason for players circumventing the rules, they are simply a prime example because a base needs constantly supplied where other toys do not.***
***PoBs aren't the reason for players circumventing the rules, they are simply a prime example because a base needs constantly supplied where other toys do not.***
Currently the neutral trading coop known as Tinker´s uses Freelance ID and T&T/ taged Serenities to trade, and Junker ID J/T&T/ tagged Salvagers or other ships to scrap ect.
Reverting to single Junker ID would :
instakill most of the RP about diplomacy we have been building up
prevent us to legally trade scrap to Kusari. Jes, we can trade to Sabah / Singapore and even PoB´s like Brunswyck, but trading Scrap to Kusari is actually one of our major goals. And NOT to trade scrap as smuggling / contraband big money to Alpha or Gamma. We very rarely do that.
prevent us to use our mostely neutral rep in the second RP goal that is set by T&T : The Haven clinic and the [SRO] / humanitarian aid project.
As I pointed out :
We are interested in clearing things up and will gladly switch to a single ID if possible, but using the preordained Junker or Freelancer ID will not function well and probably kill of the faction.
We are prepared to fully count as Junkers - we are Junkers after all... but we at least need a different rephack, even if it is only by a slight margin.
That would enable Hogosha and others to attack us using ID rules, so please realize : We are not really powergaming or trying to *only gather the best bits* , as we would take the 3600 cargo max from the Freelancer ID and the Freelancer ID´s engagement ruels. We are DOWNGRADING the Junker ID so that we can get the rephack we would like to have, not upgrading it.
Latest suggestion by us :
Quote:Tinker´s ID : ( based on a mix of Junker and Freelance ID )
counts as Junker ID ( Organisation ID ) but with differing Rep sheet.
Sirius wide ZoI like Freelancer ID. Can attack any ship in self-defense or to protect an allied ship. ( Not in defense of a neutral ship as T&T/ takes a defensive stance in weapon use )
( Can fulfill any bounty and escort contracts, but may not treat transports as combat targets when executing a bounty or escort contract against them. / discuss this as possible balancing tool ? )
max cargo at 3600
may use civilian ship line & Junker ship line but according to cargo max no P-Train. Allows snubs / freighters / bombers / transports / gunboats
has predefined Rep ( hostile to Xeno,hostile to Gallia, nearly hostile to Hogosha & Samura ect.)
has a scrap and prem_scrap mining bonus ( to be defined )