As admins are in a no win situation and often faced with unjustified hate lets see if community discussion adds anything.
This is not a trail by forum and will end if the community are not mature enough to enter within the spirit of the experiment.
Players are aware of my feelings on this so it is not devolving admin decision, just as the title says, an experiment.
ID under question
Pilot carrying this lawful ID is an employee of Gas Miners Guild, who:
* - Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
* - Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect an allied or neutral lawful ship, or in defense of a base of the same affiliation, both within and outside of their Zone of Influence.
* - Can attack ships belonging to houses or organisations considered hostile by the GMG within their Zone of Influence.
* - Can engage in piracy against Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas only.
* - Cannot ally with any unlawfuls except for Golden Chrysanthemums and Blood Dragons.
* - Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.
Can a GMG pilot ask for money to traverse Sigma 13 from a neutral/friendly faction?
Reasoned points only, mature approach please.
There are only two somewhat relevant lines in the ID, so I'll filter them out.
(12-30-2014, 08:56 PM)Tunicle Wrote: * - Can demand contraband and levy fines within their Zone of Influence, and attack if ships refuse to comply.
* - Can engage in piracy against Samura and Kruger in the Sigmas only.
Since simply traversing the system is not "carrying contraband" there is no demand that can be issued for the first line.
The second line is a bit more tricky, because of how you asked the question. Because technically from a gameplay standpoint Kruger and Samura are rephacked no-dock, but still "neutral" in the repsheet.
So the answer to your exact question is: "No, except it is a Kruger or Samura vessel."
Thank you, clear answer to what was asked with some rationale - Tunicle
If it was to be implement, then why couldn't Houses then ask for Custom Taxes from Traders, other than their own Corporations, entering House Space?
It would give the Police/Navy another Job to do, so possibly not a bad thing in that context. It would also have to be restricted in the amount requested otherwise it would be open to abuse. One could suggest that would be a use for Border Stations that are on some Entrances in to House Space.
Thank you, clear answer but rationale drifts into what if's - Tunicle
'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
If a Rheinland affiliated trader will be extorted by a seemingly neutral group in the Sigmas, there will be a reply to it. You will just end up with GMG being stomped into the ground by Uboats.
Leave that fun to the Libertonians.
A sort of implied answer but for people who cannot read between the lines could be confusing - Tunicle
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Sigma-13 is GMG terrain. GMG is sovereign entity. In theory, if official faction somehow sanctions that (some Houses have special trade permission taxes, for groups or certain commodities),This is true but currently not the case so takes answer away from question - Tunicle there should be nothing wrong with that, even if it's demanding tax for passage from allies. Of course, this should be kept within reasonable boundaries (thus I said somehow sanctioned by official faction), so we don't end up with GMG bombers waiting fo ore transports in S-13 all the time.
Well ID says they can ask for levy fines This implies a law/regulation has been broken, a blanket toll does not fall into this unless a law is ther to be broken, currently does not apply - Tunicle so people can use lot of RP justification for it GMG| officials have diferent aproach they dont do it, but some others indie players or indie factions have totaly oposite position but both are within the GMG ID. Currently this is not within the GMG ID, it involves equating fine with toll, something that is not really justified - Tunicle
So Sigma 13 is space of GMG both GMG| officials and those indies they are both within the ID RP stands are diferent and since that is GMG space what ever GMG does in it's own space is lawful for them as long as it's within their ID.
Levy fines are not just punishments for violations of the some law they are fines for everything for example spiting in space, bad words, etc etc etc... and in the end use of GMG stuff by other factions or groups can be also charged or issued a levy fine ya whana use my house to get faster to the neighbour well you must pay in order to pass thrue my house and get there or i whont let you thrue it if you dont pay using my house as a shortcut. That definition of a fine is not tenable, you do need to have a law broken otherwise it is a tax at best - Tunicle
So i realy dont see a problem here. Seeing a problem and being a problem are two different things, this is a problem - Tunicle
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(12-30-2014, 09:25 PM)Pavel Wrote: Sigma-13 is GMG terrain. GMG is sovereign entity. In theory, if official faction somehow sanctions that (some Houses have special trade permission taxes, for groups or certain commodities), there should be nothing wrong with that, even if it's demanding tax for passage from allies. Of course, this should be kept within reasonable boundaries (thus I said somehow sanctioned by official faction), so we don't end up with GMG bombers waiting fo ore transports in S-13 all the time.
This! With adding that the amount of ask for that passage, will not be too high. A low price would be more then enough. maximum 1-3 millions in my eyes. It can give some fun in my eyes and some positive changes. I like this idea GMG Whilst not actually answering what is asked it does suggest a potential RP solution to try and work for - Tunicle
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Is a toll a fine? I don't think so, a fine implies some sort of wrongdoing. I wouldn't say a toll is outright piracy either unless you try to enforce it with deadly force, I'm guessing that is the case since the person took the time to file a report. Either way the ID doesn't allow for any kind of toll. If they tried to get money from a friendly or neutral ship I would say it was wrong, would probably be a different story if it was hostile. Since it is apparently a bit of a grey area I would think a warning would/should be all that is used for now.
Thank you for an answer with rationale. Not sure where the grey bit is as the ID says fine, - Tunicle
(12-30-2014, 09:28 PM)Hauler Wrote: Well ID says they can ask for levy fines so people can use lot of RP justification for it GMG| officials have diferent aproach they dont do it, but some others indie players or indie factions have totaly oposite position but both are within the GMG ID.
So Sigma 13 is space of GMG both GMG| officials and those indies they are both within the ID RP stands are diferent and since that is GMG space what ever GMG does in it's own space is lawful for them as long as it's within their ID.
Levy fines are not just punishments for violations of the some law they are fines for everything for example spiting in space, bad words, etc etc etc... and in the end use of GMG stuff by other factions or groups can be also charged or issued a levy fine ya whana use my house to get faster to the neighbour well you must pay in order to pass thrue my house and get there or i whont let you thrue it if you dont pay using my house as a shortcut.
Do not confuse fines with taxes, they are different in their nature. Also you are basically saying that every lawfull that has "can levy fines" in his ID, has the right to ask money from every trader ( or any vessel for that matter) that goes through their zoi. So he has the right to pirate them, to get straight to the point. That is absurd. Needed or just potentially inflammatory? - Tunicle
Think this is covered by green interjections above - Tunicle