I can see where Dii is coming from - balancing LFs to be akin to the Libby in order to make them useful.
Perhaps we could buff the hull of light fighters, in exchange for making them unable to mount a shield? Just a random thought I had.
you have 1 small ship being shot at by 5 much heavier ones, why should the smaller ship roll over and die when its DESIGNED to be able to evade those vessels? and yea i thought you would bring up that fight, I was on teamspeak with them while it was happening. Hilarious.
And im pretty sure there were several thousand other ships fighting you prior to and at the same of dan being defeated? since you were in the heart of liberty, somehow i dont think dan was defeated 1v1 from full hp by 1 Libby. And so anyway because it happened that one time that means it happens all the time right? you must honestly be joking, and calling any light fighter "VERY overpowered" is pretty embarrassing.
they were "VERY overpowered" when they could fly over to your VHF and chunk about 40% of your hull in one salvo and then just run away. right now they are not at all very overpowered, id say (at least those three) are performing as intended, the rest are absolute trash.
and the idea that a light fighter mustnt be allowed to kill a VHF or hell hath no fury with the nerf bat is sad. So dan died, what of it? rather than it being a celebrated event of skill on the other players part, (because dans a damn good pilot) its turning into a reason to attack light fighters.
(02-03-2015, 11:07 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Right. So LFs are completely fine, and Liberator is completely balanced when you have 5 people shooting at it - Omicega, Charos, Me, Durandle and Bloogal - none of which you can say is a newbie pvper and can't even do a hit on it.
Maybe we should try that again when I'm not flying circles around rocks in the badlands.
Quote:Liberator doesn't preform only harassment, harassment you get from a 3 guns LF like Hayabusa, Liberator is doing actual painful damage.
Blame whoever came up with the idea of making LF guns a separate class that are more powerful than any other. LFs used to be able to only mount subpar guns, and I think the smaller LFs were fine that way.
(02-03-2015, 11:07 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Right. So LFs are completely fine, and Liberator is completely balanced when you have 5 people shooting at it - Omicega, Charos, Me, Durandle and Bloogal - none of which you can say is a newbie pvper and can't even do a hit on it.
Maybe we should try that again when I'm not flying circles around rocks in the badlands.
Quote:Liberator doesn't preform only harassment, harassment you get from a 3 guns LF like Hayabusa, Liberator is doing actual painful damage.
Blame whoever came up with the idea of making LF guns a separate class that are more powerful than any other. LFs used to be able to only mount subpar guns, and I think the smaller LFs were fine that way.
I can bring up tons of other instances Redon, and you didn't even make an attempt.
I am saying that contrary to Diis hypothesis that Liberator is a support ship that has no real tooth to it - he's wrong. I am not saying that all LFs are overpowered, and I am not saying that they should all be useless. I am saying that a Liberator copy-cat isn't something we should strive for, that's it.
their guns were needlessly buffed I will agree on that completely. but that isnt why you were commenting here and that also isnt what hastes issue with them is either. Your issue is that they shouldnt be small because they can run away from you in a VHF.
and i say, so what? thats what they are designed to be able to do, and changing that by slowing them down, reducing turn speeds, strafe or responsiveness just makes them completely useless because they arent designed to be hit.
I mean hell, i was at oubli or whatever that gallic BS is next to leeds in my caracal prior to an pew brawl happening, haste undocks and hes like hugging my light fighter (which is as big as his lynx no less) and just messing around waiting for stuff to get going and people to log in he shoots my ship after ramming my shield off and im practically dead after only a half second of all his guns hitting me. and then he says the words that coming from the lead dev with his eyes on my favourite toys made me feel deeply sad.
he goes "holy shit whyd you take so much damage, dont you have armour on that thing?" in that seedy hasteric voice of his. :S I can still hear him say it even now.
I mean dont you get it? if light fighters get hit its over they are dead, they have a tiny window of saftey with their shield and all, otherwise, NOPE your a gonner if you are taking damage.
(02-03-2015, 11:34 PM)Pancakes Wrote: I can bring up tons of other instances Redon, and you didn't even make an attempt.
I am saying that contrary to Diis hypothesis that Liberator is a support ship that has no real tooth to it - he's wrong. I am not saying that all LFs are overpowered, and I am not saying that they should all be useless. I am saying that a Liberator copy-cat isn't something we should strive for, that's it.
I'm saying maybe we should think of better ways to rebalance LFs instead of just turning them into HFs because you can't hit them.
I think a libby should be able to run away from any group of fighters if it's trying hard enough - it's the lightest vessel after all, and usually painted as a sort of scouting vessel in roleplay. I don't think a libby should be able to kill another fighter while 4 other equally skilled fighters are shooting at it, and assuming said fighter is making an attempt to fight back. If it does that, something is wrong. Does that really happen all the time? I can't do it.
If your problem is that it's doing too much damage, then this can fixed by going back to giving it weak LF guns instead of lolguns with over 3400 dps in the case of Enforcers. If your problem is that it's too sturdy in combat, think about a solution like making its shields weaker, or recharge more slowly. Don't tell me LFs have to be bigger to be balanced, because what you're thinking of isn't an LF.
The Lynx has one of the higher YPR stats i saw in shiparch paired with high numbers of regens and pretty solid hull for a VHF. It doesn't seem to lose much for it's advantages.
I'd personally love to see this style of balance for these craft.
LF = VHF's worst nightmare, ultimate turnfighter, should be nicking apart VHFs. Weak hull. Damage output is too minimal to quickly threaten a bomber type craft. 220 thrust. Pathetic at capital ship combat and against transports.
HF = Balances the roles of HF and VHF / Decent firepower and hull, middle ground between both roles, has enough power to support Starkiller torpedoes only, powerful enough to damage mounted cap ship equipment, ineffectual against anything larger than a gunboat. 212-213 thrust. Moderately successful as a transport hunter.
VHF = Bane of the bomber pilot. Sunslayer torpedoes moderately effective 1/3rd as effective as capital craft, same with VHF SNAC. Effective transport hunter. 205 thrust.
Bomber = Bane of heavy capital ships. Effective against transports. Baseline speed of 200 thrust.
I've seen and done some work that has been balanced in FL this way. Most common craft after these types of changes is usually the HFs for solo operators, and usually a mix for group activities.
While the above might seem a little bit of a tangent, I put that up there because for the most part, there isn't much reason presently to use anything other than bombers and VHFs. Even if you added some extra LFs in; large or small; they would hardly be used by anyone other than enthusiasts.
(02-04-2015, 12:08 AM)Scotia Wrote: While the above might seem a little bit of a tangent, I put that up there because for the most part, there isn't much reason presently to use anything other than bombers and VHFs. Even if you added some extra LFs in; large or small; they would hardly be used by anyone other than enthusiasts.
this again is why im really struggling to see why there are a select few people just against light fighters like the libby which can actually do things that dont involve exploding all over the opponents screen.
(02-03-2015, 11:34 PM)Pancakes Wrote: I can bring up tons of other instances Redon, and you didn't even make an attempt.
I am saying that contrary to Diis hypothesis that Liberator is a support ship that has no real tooth to it - he's wrong. I am not saying that all LFs are overpowered, and I am not saying that they should all be useless. I am saying that a Liberator copy-cat isn't something we should strive for, that's it.
I'm saying maybe we should think of better ways to rebalance LFs instead of just turning them into HFs because you can't hit them.
I think a libby should be able to run away from any group of fighters if it's trying hard enough - it's the lightest vessel after all, and usually painted as a sort of scouting vessel in roleplay. I don't think a libby should be able to kill another fighter while 4 other equally skilled fighters are shooting at it, and assuming said fighter is making an attempt to fight back. If it does that, something is wrong. Does that really happen all the time? I can't do it.
If your problem is that it's doing too much damage, then this can fixed by going back to giving it weak LF guns instead of lolguns with over 3400 dps in the case of Enforcers. If your problem is that it's too sturdy in combat, think about a solution like making its shields weaker, or recharge more slowly. Don't tell me LFs have to be bigger to be balanced, because what you're thinking of isn't an LF.
The issue is that hampering the damage would affect ALL lfs, even the bigger ones - thus making what little good can come out of them begone. Hence why I suggested that the smaller LFs would be nerfed down to 3 guns since the current LF guns are doing insane damage output, 2 hullbusters is more than a plenty on LF to make a dent, let it have anther 2 debs and gg shields too.
Again, what I am saying that a copy-cat of Liberator is bad. I wouldn't mind to give a try to a Liberator-like only with 3 guns, so then it will do what Dii suggested - have the ability to poke VHFs. Poke, not have a near equal DPS with just half the guns.
(02-04-2015, 12:25 AM)Pancakes Wrote: The issue is that hampering the damage would affect ALL lfs, even the bigger ones - thus making what little good can come out of them begone. Hence why I suggested that the smaller LFs would be nerfed down to 3 guns since the current LF guns are doing insane damage output, 2 hullbusters is more than a plenty on LF to make a dent, let it have anther 2 debs and gg shields too.
Again, what I am saying that a copy-cat of Liberator is bad. I wouldn't mind to give a try to a Liberator-like only with 3 guns, so then it will do what Dii suggested - have the ability to poke VHFs. Poke, not have a near equal DPS with just half the guns.
The bigger LFs need to be rebalanced especially, not by giving them (even) higher damage, but by scaling them down and making them turn faster. You know, by turning them into actual light fighters. What good is any ship that dies to a single MR when it has almost the same attack surface as a VHF?
And they don't need only 3 guns, they need 4 guns that are together as strong as 3 normal guns. Why limit the way LFs can customize their loadouts just because their guns have ridiculous stats? Going from 6/7 to 4 isn't enough? Nerf the guns instead.