Well, conquering some space for limited time and taking permanent full control are two entirely different things when it comes to resources. To gain full control, you need to establish loyal forces which can keep control over space and mainly over original population which don´t like you. That´s difficult task even for those few systems Gallia already conquered, not to mention gaining control over whole planet Leeds full of resistance movement. And the more you are stretching, the weaker you are and the more resources you need.
In my opinion Gallia does not have reason to conquer whole Bretonia, because it brings more troubles than gains. Only useful assets for them is Leeds as industrial system, and Dublin for the gold mining fields (but there they would have to fight not only with BAF but also with Mollys). The rest is either unneeded or isn´t worth to spend resources on conquering it (maybe Omega-3 is interesting for local mining fields, but you need to conquer New London and Cambridge to get there so again, it is question if this is worth it) . Also, the smaller defended space is, the easier for defenders is to defend it thus last strongholds usually cost lots of resources to conquer.
Actually I would expect Gallia to try establish peace negotiations with Bretonia right now, because it is about time for that. Liberty is no longer weakened by war with Rheinland - even more than that, they now has again access to resources from Rheinland as the trading is restored. So if Gallia wants to be ready for Liberty´s full military power, they should reduce amount of their enemies too so they can focus on Liberty front and also fortifying conquered space including gaining full control over them.
Though of course there is ooRP factor of gameplay. If above mentioned scenario would happen, it would likely turn Bretonia into dead space where there is not much to do (and it has activity problems already even now). Would be nice to revive fight over Dublin and with Corsairs of course, but I have my doubts this would happen in scale big enough to create sustainable strong enough source of activity.
(04-27-2016, 10:21 AM)Laura C. Wrote: Well, conquering some space for limited time and taking permanent full control are two entirely different things when it comes to resources. To gain full control, you need to establish loyal forces which can keep control over space and mainly over original population which don´t like you. That´s difficult task even for those few systems Gallia already conquered, not to mention gaining control over whole planet Leeds full of resistance movement. And the more you are stretching, the weaker you are and the more resources you need.
In my opinion Gallia does not have reason to conquer whole Bretonia, because it brings more troubles than gains. Only useful assets for them is Leeds as industrial system, and Dublin for the gold mining fields (but there they would have to fight not only with BAF but also with Mollys). The rest is either unneeded or isn´t worth to spend resources on conquering it (maybe Omega-3 is interesting for local mining fields, but you need to conquer New London and Cambridge to get there so again, it is question if this is worth it) . Also, the smaller defended space is, the easier for defenders is to defend it thus last strongholds usually cost lots of resources to conquer.
Actually I would expect Gallia to try establish peace negotiations with Bretonia right now, because it is about time for that. Liberty is no longer weakened by war with Rheinland - even more than that, they now has again access to resources from Rheinland as the trading is restored. So if Gallia wants to be ready for Liberty´s full military power, they should reduce amount of their enemies too so they can focus on Liberty front and also fortifying conquered space including gaining full control over them.
Though of course there is ooRP factor of gameplay. If above mentioned scenario would happen, it would likely turn Bretonia into dead space where there is not much to do (and it has activity problems already even now). Would be nice to revive fight over Dublin and with Corsairs of course, but I have my doubts this would happen in scale big enough to create sustainable strong enough source of activity.
Wow.
Right on the money. Great analysis, Laura C.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
<3
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:12:00] Traxit: this is smut stop
When I led GRN we had a cease fire with the Mollys, and I believe even a trade pact. This was years ago but it did solidify our flank through Dublin at first. I don't know what became if that.
Honestly the BAF should reach out to the Mollys and accept the help of the unlawful parties of Bretonia, and especially the Omega Triumvirate. That's a decent fleet right there that can strike Gallia from the side. Legitimizing the Mollys as a lawful entity eith Dublin and establishing formal relations at this point at least can keep the GRN from storming the system with a massive fighter and gunboat swarm unopposed.
That's just how I view things honestly. Bretonia is nearly finish if Gallia deploys any more of its fleet and finds a way to clear asteroids. Or if Gallia repairs/replaces the current jump gate.
What confuses me is why isn't Gallia sending a fleet into Kusari to crush the Exiles and then hit Liberty through Kepler and Galileo. It has the raw numbers for such a move...but hey, there's probably reasons I don't see.
(04-27-2016, 12:53 PM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: What confuses me is why isn't Gallia sending a fleet into Kusari to crush the Exiles and then hit Liberty through Kepler and Galileo. It has the raw numbers for such a move...but hey, there's probably reasons I don't see.
Honestly, the numbers we operate with are kind of weird. I somehow miss reason to construct such huge number of capital ships which take so much resources to build and maintain. I always took it the way storyline devs just needed "mighty enemy" for lore so some insanely huge numbers were thrown in.
Anyway, even if we will operate with it - deployment such far from home systems is logistically very compliated. Just look at engines - Gallia use completely different engines from Sirians, so if you need repair it, parts must be shipped all the way from Gallia. And this applies to all repair parts, lot of amunition (I doubt you can buy amunition used by GRN in Kusari). Then there are also dead and wounded soldiers which have to be shipped back home, you need shipyards for major repairs of damaged capital ships etc.
In general waging a war is very constly in term of money and resources, especially over long distances. And insufficient resources are the reason for war, so Gallia actually can´t afford to waste them willy nilly.
Also, Kusari would be definitely against such thing, because it would lead to blocked border with Liberty for trading, thus damaged economy. Sure, Gallia can try to force them...but it may end in another war or uprising and you are back at the beginning, fighting yet another war you actually don´t want to fight. And what is important, situation is way different than it was during first Kusari vs. Gallia war. Before, it was just Kusari versus Gallia, now it would be Gallia vs Kusari and Bretonia and Liberty. Not to mention, Kusari theoretically can now ask their Rheinland friends for help, what wasn´t possible before due to Lib-Rhein war. I don´t think that Gallia wants (and is capable) to fight all out war in a "we vs. whole Sirius" style.
(04-27-2016, 12:53 PM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: What confuses me is why isn't Gallia sending a fleet into Kusari to crush the Exiles and then hit Liberty through Kepler and Galileo. It has the raw numbers for such a move...but hey, there's probably reasons I don't see.
Honestly, the numbers we operate with are kind of weird. I somehow miss reason to construct such huge number of capital ships which take so much resources to build and maintain. I always took it the way storyline devs just needed "mighty enemy" for lore so some insanely huge numbers were thrown in.
Anyway, even if we will operate with it - deployment such far from home systems is logistically very compliated. Just look at engines - Gallia use completely different engines from Sirians, so if you need repair it, parts must be shipped all the way from Gallia. And this applies to all repair parts, lot of amunition (I doubt you can buy amunition used by GRN in Kusari). Then there are also dead and wounded soldiers which have to be shipped back home, you need shipyards for major repairs of damaged capital ships etc.
In general waging a war is very constly in term of money and resources, especially over long distances. And insufficient resources are the reason for war, so Gallia actually can´t afford to waste them willy nilly.
Also, Kusari would be definitely against such thing, because it would lead to blocked border with Liberty for trading, thus damaged economy. Sure, Gallia can try to force them...but it may end in another war or uprising and you are back at the beginning, fighting yet another war you actually don´t want to fight. And what is important, situation is way different than it was during first Kusari vs. Gallia war. Before, it was just Kusari versus Gallia, now it would be Gallia vs Kusari and Bretonia and Liberty. Not to mention, Kusari theoretically can now ask their Rheinland friends for help, what wasn´t possible before due to Lib-Rhein war. I don´t think that Gallia wants (and is capable) to fight all out war in a "we vs. whole Sirius" style.
InRP, Dab told me that the Gallic Royalty depleted most of Gallia's natural resources to make this fleet. They need to invade because they have nothing left. When I led GRN the numbers were about 2000 capitals, including gunboats, in total. That was the last bit of numbers I know Gallia had, but IDK if anyone changed that at any point. 500 battleships seem like a workable number - send 100 and their escorts and Kusari falls - again.
InRP, Kusari's fleet was also mostly destroyed, leaving Kusari with only a handful of battleships in actuality. Even if you factor in the Yamaguchi and Nagasaki, plus the Satsuma and Escorts, that's not enough to stand against a ten battleship + escort fleet, nor is the inRP Blood Dragon fleet any way able to go toe to toe with Gallia. Gallia could open a new front now, but yes. Parts and supplies will remain one of the major problems...a problem that can be rectified if Gallia supported it's puppet state, and started using Kusari's infrastructure to manufacture new parts for their fleet. This would help keep a supply line open for Gallia, though both of these supply lines do go through the Taus or Orkney/Edin. It's a way Gallia can keep in the fight without pulling a Napoleon at this rate, especially with their recent push into Magellan and reducing the useable routes between Bretonia and Liberty to solely Cortez, a tactic can can fail if Gallia takes San Diego and pushes to the Cortez gate in California.
Finally...Gallia should have gone for Rheinland. Siding and offering financial and infrastructure aid through trade...all Gallia would have to do is move in and secure a route from Leeds to the Omegas. Taking Cambridge would open yet another supply line for the GRN and encircle Bretonia and Liberty, forcing Liberty to worry about surprise attacks from all sides. But with the Liberty-Rheinland Peace Accords, this venue of roleplay is unallowable, sadly.
I would like to see Liberty and Bretonia fall, each government in hiding as remnants of the military commence guerilla warfare against Gallia in an attempt to whittle down their foe and reclaim their home. But that is probably just me.
In short, the reason why Gallia hasn't done, isn't doing, and won't be doing half or more of the things in this thread is entirely because of gameplay-related reasons.
Kusari players and the storyline devs (understandably) don't want us interfering in Kusari during its new civil war arc. Bretonian players don't want to have their entire House go into exile, and the less said about the privileged position Liberty enjoys as the main 'protagonist house', the better.
A whole lot of the stuff suggested would be something I'd personally enjoy seeing, but I'm also well aware that certain others who would be affected greatly by their implementations have an entirely different position on things I'd like to see happen. Having Kusari become an actual vassal/satellite state of Gallia and taking control of its foreign policy is something that I think should have happened from a story perspective, but I can see why it hasn't happened from a gameplay one. That said, in my headcanon Kepler and Galileo should have already become warzones.
With regards the whole issue of Rheinland, I brought a very similar proposal of assistance/cooperation/informal alliance up to one of the previous [RM] leaders, and was promptly told by him that the story devs had intervened with him in private and told him that it wasn't going to happen. Go figure.
(04-27-2016, 02:32 PM)Omicega Wrote: In short, the reason why Gallia hasn't done, isn't doing, and won't be doing half or more of the things in this thread is entirely because of gameplay-related reasons.
Kusari players and the storyline devs (understandably) don't want us interfering in Kusari during its new civil war arc. Bretonian players don't want to have their entire House go into exile, and the less said about the privileged position Liberty enjoys as the main 'protagonist house', the better.
A whole lot of the stuff suggested would be something I'd personally enjoy seeing, but I'm also well aware that certain others who would be affected greatly by their implementations have an entirely different position on things I'd like to see happen. Having Kusari become an actual vassal/satellite state of Gallia and taking control of its foreign policy is something that I think should have happened from a story perspective, but I can see why it hasn't happened from a gameplay one. That said, in my headcanon Kepler and Galileo should have already become warzones.
With regards the whole issue of Rheinland, I brought a very similar proposal of assistance/cooperation/informal alliance up to one of the previous [RM] leaders, and was promptly told by him that the story devs had intervened with him in private and told him that it wasn't going to happen. Go figure.
And this is why we can't have nice things.
Meh. There's so much awesome potential that is lost because of this, to be honest. It's saddening that any real conflict, any real loss of any house beyond what Rheinland and Bretonia once had, is gone and Gallia will inevitably fail because of, what comes down to story devs dooming Gallia to never get past Bretonia. Which honestly, Gallia should have steamrolled everything by now.
Oh well.
Story devs have say, we can only dance in their strings. As a friend recently told me.
Disco went from "We can do that." To "no, that's against lore." Go figure.
(04-27-2016, 12:53 PM)Jeremy Hunter Wrote: When I led GRN we had a cease fire with the Mollys, and I believe even a trade pact. This was years ago but it did solidify our flank through Dublin at first. I don't know what became if that.
Yup, the treaty of Seychelles is still in effect. And you're right too, there's an economical aspect aswell.
Edit : Unfortunatly, with the new mining changes, New Paris doesn't buy gold ore in game anymore...( while it still does in lore ).
(04-27-2016, 10:21 AM)Laura C. Wrote: In my opinion Gallia does not have reason to conquer whole Bretonia, because it brings more troubles than gains. Only useful assets for them is Leeds as industrial system, and Dublin for the gold mining fields (but there they would have to fight not only with BAF but also with Mollys).
I think that is why the treaty with the Mollys was signed by the kingdom of Gallia :
They don't have to fight the Mollys in Dublin, and they're granted somehow access to the gold fields.
Getting back to the point...
(04-26-2016, 11:21 PM)Thunderer Wrote: Some of it is being moved to Sprague, but as the planet has been colonized only recently and hastily, it is enough for supporting the southern border against pirates, but hardly enough to help the front.
I personally see Sprague, a desert world, more like a giant refugee camp with hastly set up industry, rather than a recently colonised planet. I don't know exactly how is the lore about the subject... but i very doubt it has been possible to do more, considering the number of refugee, and the ressources it would take to colonize this hostile world properly.
Then i see it more like a financial and material sink, rather than a planet able to sustain itself , not to mention supporting the southern border against ( mostly ) the corsair empire.
But again, that's a personal view.
Other wise i found Thunderer's analysis on the current economical status accurate, and relevant.
(04-26-2016, 11:21 PM)Thunderer Wrote: What Bretonia is relying on is that all the jump gates leading to its core territory from Gallic controlled space have been disabled. There are some jump holes, yes, but those always end in asteroid or waste fields and are unstable.
Considering, that they used jump holes, to Orkney, the Taus, Edinburg, to invade thoses part of sirius, i would rather rely on another tactic. Sure, asteroids are a serious problem when it comes to move fleet through it. But did they not do that in the Taus ?
In addition, did the Gallic council, did just blow a part of the heavy mine field in Languedoc and Orkney system to create some sort of tunnel ?
What would stop the Navy to do the same in asteroids fields ?
At least this is a concern to the Mollys.
(04-27-2016, 02:32 PM)Omicega Wrote: With regards the whole issue of Rheinland, I brought a very similar proposal of assistance/cooperation/informal alliance up to one of the previous [RM] leaders, and was promptly told by him that the story devs had intervened with him in private and told him that it wasn't going to happen. Go figure.
(04-27-2016, 02:32 PM)Omicega Wrote: In short, the reason why Gallia hasn't done, isn't doing, and won't be doing half or more of the things in this thread is entirely because of gameplay-related reasons.
Kusari players and the storyline devs (understandably) don't want us interfering in Kusari during its new civil war arc. Bretonian players don't want to have their entire House go into exile, and the less said about the privileged position Liberty enjoys as the main 'protagonist house', the better.
A whole lot of the stuff suggested would be something I'd personally enjoy seeing, but I'm also well aware that certain others who would be affected greatly by their implementations have an entirely different position on things I'd like to see happen. Having Kusari become an actual vassal/satellite state of Gallia and taking control of its foreign policy is something that I think should have happened from a story perspective, but I can see why it hasn't happened from a gameplay one. That said, in my headcanon Kepler and Galileo should have already become warzones.
With regards the whole issue of Rheinland, I brought a very similar proposal of assistance/cooperation/informal alliance up to one of the previous [RM] leaders, and was promptly told by him that the story devs had intervened with him in private and told him that it wasn't going to happen. Go figure.
And this is why we can't have nice things.
Meh. There's so much awesome potential that is lost because of this, to be honest. It's saddening that any real conflict, any real loss of any house beyond what Rheinland and Bretonia once had, is gone and Gallia will inevitably fail because of, what comes down to story devs dooming Gallia to never get past Bretonia. Which honestly, Gallia should have steamrolled everything by now.
Oh well.
Story devs have say, we can only dance in their strings. As a friend recently told me.
Disco went from "We can do that." To "no, that's against lore." Go figure.
Disco never was player driven (and I often consider it good, mainly during reading some proposals here and there), nothing changed in that. And current dev team at least communicate and even cooperate with playerbase, that´s something what was rare or didn´t happen at all in past.
Such major change as wiping whole houses from map can have serious consequencies including killing vanilla factions. It would remove on of the qualities Disco even advertise - that this mod is quite close to the vanilla game.
Also, don´t forget that Gallia is so almighty just because some storyline dev once wrote few numbers. It does not mean Gallia should be entitled to inevitably rule (half of) the Sirius one day. Not to mention there are many examples in history when vastly superior side could not win against inferior enemy (we actually have at least one even in Disco lore - Eighty Years War).
Major changes has to be done in a way to improve things and make them interesting so the players will feel motivated to play. Not just because they look cool at first glance.
(04-27-2016, 02:32 PM)Omicega Wrote: With regards the whole issue of Rheinland, I brought a very similar proposal of assistance/cooperation/informal alliance up to one of the previous [RM] leaders, and was promptly told by him that the story devs had intervened with him in private and told him that it wasn't going to happen. Go figure.
That's so stupid. Rheinland could've double teamed with Gallia against Liberty and kept the war going (which would still create activity and roleplay). And maybe via the vassal state thing Kusari would get involved too.
Finally, we could have started to see Liberty's plot armour start to corrode. I guess not.