It won't be with disappointment, dismay, a condescending tone, or with an aggressive nuclear option.
(07-02-2016, 11:53 AM)Alley Wrote: IMO the admins should unban the 5 lesser offenders (Lyth should remain banned as he's the only one deserving a perma here).
They should also demand that the leader of the dev riot publicly apologize for actively contributing to making the situation ten times worse and probably killing the future of the community.
I also expect Teerin to take actions because while the way the admin move was made is more than questionable, jeopardizing the future of the mod just to have the highest score on the drama scoreboard doesn't look acceptable from here.
I've spent the past day or so, monitoring the situation, and talking to people on all sides. Communicating on the same level to all parties really does work wonders, and I think some of the problems arose from people not wanting to talk until it burst out big on the forums. Yes, this includes the "shadow bans", the "dev strike", and the half dozen other presumptive threads that have been posted about this. Call it cheesy or naive, but I know the community as a whole can work together to improve this situation ... so long as everyone is willing to show a little humility and own up to their mistakes.
Poor attitudes are part of the cause, and unfortunately, it has slipped into a self perpetuating cycle.
Ideally, the staff should work on the mandate of the community, holding themselves to high standards while doing what is right. In spite of short memory and high negativity, the teams that run this place have done this well at various points in the past. Unfortunately, we've slipped into a recursive loop of poor attitude about it. Something is wrong, the Admins do something, vocal community members complain, Admins try to fix and explain, complaints continue, a prominent Admin leaves, staff productivity drops, another issue comes up, and the cycle repeats. Sounds familiar to anyone? Well, such is bound to happen, of course, however recently it seems to have become more of an issue.
Regardless of whether or not it is true for the individuals that comprise the staff, when those in charge as a group give off the appearance of ambivalence, then there truly are issues which must be looked into. I shall not name them, but for example, after the "dev strike" thread was posted, at least two admins immediately tried to shrug it off as "TS crew/squad and their friends" ... which, if you know @Durandal at all, isn't true in the slightest. Many of the other members of my team who are on strike also aren't part of that group. That was just an example, however, and I've seen more. "Oh, they're just standing up for their friends" ... well, whether they are or not, that shouldn't even matter. Valid points should not be scoffed at due to presumed relationships. Their opinions aren't moot just because they don't disagree with sunshine and roses.
Let me briefly interject to say that I'm not here to just endlessly rail on the Administration Team. Every "side" of this issue has a number of good people on it, even if the dramatic forum politics have blinded people to that. I've come to an understanding that there are decent arguments from all angles, but they all also have significant room to improve.
But back to the chase. In general, the Administration ought to work on their accountability and consistency, plus in this specific case, due process and evidence gathering. Accountability, because there is an issue with them making decisions then not responding well to community feedback (tons of complaints =/= mob rule); consistency due to lack of true "set in stone" decisions over time, with membership in flux and rulings being changed (which can be contributed to memory, different perspectives, new issues, etc.); due process of having a new rule system devised, then Admins disregarding part of that and a statement made not even a month later; and the evidence or presumed lack thereof to back decisions up.
I understand, being an Administrator is no easy job. I've seen plenty of good ones such as @mwerte, @farmerman (ktayn), and more recently @Arioch (all among others) leave because of the stressful nature of managing this community. It's also why I turned down an offer to become one last fall. But this brings us to the other side of things: the average community members.
There are plenty of people who so easily get into fights with others. I'd consider writing a list if it wouldn't take an hour and be removed for trial-by-forum. Some are incredibly trigger-happy on the forums with hostile posts, directed at people who they think are trolls, fools, or dumb. Sure, free speech (within the rules) is your prerogative, but seriously? Furthermore, the way many of you treat staff decisions, be they Admin, Mod, or Dev, can be filled with so much despondent contempt. Push for what you believe is right, but know that there's always a constructive way to phrase your posts, and giving up hope is the easy way out.
Always remember the old 0.0 rule and the sandwich method. Courtesy, fairness, and thinking before you post will get you miles farther than disrespect, abrasiveness, derision, or malice. It might seem obvious to some, but it's easily missed. Or it might seem fruitless to others, though respect is really worth it.
To the developers who are not on strike, I commend you for continuing to work despite the forums being on fire. Same for those among the community who have kept flying in-game.
To those developers who are on strike, you brought up some valid points. In fact, I think that (in a way) it's good for you to stand up for what you believe in when you perceive a problem of this proportion. But, exactly as the Admins did with the "shadow ban", your post blew things farther out of proportion and was not worded all too well. Interestingly, while their private warnings on Skype should have been public warnings on the forum, your strike could have been better handled if you approached them privately (as a collective group) first. These actions by both groups led to the destructive bombshells.
But how will this cycle stop?
One side calls out another, as does the next, and the third, meanwhile there are escalating threats, people ignoring those on other sides, losing friends, and other nonsense. The wheel turns, does it not?
So we must break the wheel. All admit our mistakes, have humility, and be willing to directly (and publicly, when appropriate) talk to the very people we with whom have a problem with. We're all human, no one is truly scary no matter how they type, and if power is abused then the community must gather to show those who do that we give them the mandate on which their power stands.
So does Teerin's ramble have a point?
As a summary, "shadow bans" went too far, the "dev strike" was poorly executed, and the community reaction to both has caused a heavy split. No, we as staff do not have to agree on everything with each other, but we should work more in concert. Same goes for the community - please, disagree! But be civil, for goodness' sake! It's a simple concept to grasp, but this started off with people forgetting some of the basic principles of human interpersonal communication. Yes, it's the internet where people are rude, and no, that shouldn't be a bannable offense, but that's hardly an excuse to act so poorly to one another. And, if you hold a semblance of power, stand by your statements and procedures, until you publicly announce a change (yes I'm referring to the apparent "clean slate" that was ignored). Perhaps I'm making an assumption here in thinking that many don't, but treat everyone else as an equal. Step in their shoes, empathize with their motives.
What would Teerin have done to those six?
I'm actually the second most senior Moderator these days, after @Tabris. Before the new first/second/third strike system (again, seemingly ignored), the mod team would usually vote on what to do with trouble makers, whether they just broke one big rule or several little ones over the past month or three. We'd propose ban or probation times based on how severe the situation seemed to us and would reach a consensus on the option which received a net +3 votes. Ban times usually included 24 hours, 48 hours, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, or indefinite, with probation usually being 1, 3, or 6 months.
Admittedly, this was not the most consistent method, but the case-by-case nature of it better suited the offenses. Another criticism was that it was too lenient on the persistent trouble makers, which I think is true only because there weren't really any guidelines set up for it. That's not for me to decide, though, and I digress. Having seen and discussed some of the evidence, were I given the option as a Moderator to vote (none of us were even told about this), I may have voted for 1-3 months' ban for Lyth, followed by 1-3 months of probation. Karst, given his actions, a one week ban followed by no probation. The other four, 3 months of probation. There are plenty of reasons for each, and all of you are free to disagree and provide your own ideas, but do understand that this is why votes aren't public because they would take forever, and also contain vast amounts of trial-by-forum (which is bad).
When speaking to some people (names undisclosed) about reducing the sanctions, they protested, saying that they'd just return to cause more trouble. Well - that's the whole point of the first/second/third strike system. If they return without improving their behavior, THEN you slap them harder. Other people insisted that the sanctions should be removed entirely, but at this juncture, I'm unsure that's appropriate. The Administration has also been concerned about losing face if they change their stance, but here I'll refer to my initial statements in this post, about humility. The ability to put arrogance aside and concede, even while you may disagree, can (and should - I'm looking at you, community) gain you more respect. Same goes for the Developers who are on strike. All sides need to work for this situation to improve and not happen again.
So what's next?
From what I can tell, the Administration is presently conducting another set of votes. I cannot and will not say of what, since that's not my place to tell and I do not know the whole story, but with luck we will be able to deescalate matters after that has been concluded. There is no need for this community to actually fall apart. I leave all of you reading this the option to take wisdom from this wall of text, discuss it, debate it, or simply ignore it - the choice is yours to make.
I hold no malice towards any of the other Developers (on strike or not), any of the Administrators (voted for or against), or the rest of the community. This situation is indeed within our capability to fix.
Okay, I think I'm done typing for now. I have to go for a few hours, anyway. Knowing myself, I may have missed something, but oh well, have fun. I'm not going to write a tl;dr, even though this post is about two thousand words in length. Also, for those of you want to start dramatic forum quote wars with my post or other responses to cherry pick flaws in their arguments, please don't. You'd probably be missing the point.
Listen to each other, give respect, treat everyone (regardless of your opinion of them) fairly, and most importantly, don't be an imbecile.
P.S. Presumptions have been made all around by the parties involved, true. This can be eliminated through public warnings, clearly established and followed procedure, and ability to provide evidence. Perhaps it's a poor cliche, but "perception is nine-tenths of reality" and that holds true here. >> And forgive me if you think I stated the obvious a lot, above. Sometimes people can just assume everyone knows what they think is obvious, while it gets missed by other people. Proper and clear communication is key!
P.P.S Also, yes, the thread title is kind of lame. I confess!
"You see what your knowledge tells you you're seeing. ... how, what you think the universe is, and how you react to that in everything you do, depends on what you know. And when that knowledge changes, for you, the universe changes. And that is as true for the whole of society as that is for the individual. We all are what we know, today. What we knew yesterday, was different; and so were we."
- James Burke, The Day the Universe Changed (1985)
My sense is that most reasonable people are pretty much saying the same thing, Rohj. Nice to hear it again though. The matter is in the Admin's hands now. Might be a good idea for the Community to take a step back, give the team some breathing room so they can try figure things out.
I never talked to you before @Teerin but i would like to express my respect to you by quoting what truly affected me from reading your thread.
We need this size of understanding and respect so we can forget about a lot of bad things and remember the one and only good thing here which is the good sake and future of this great community
(07-02-2016, 07:43 PM)Teerin Wrote: Let me briefly interject to say that I'm not here to just endlessly rail on the Administration Team. Every "side" of this issue has a number of good people on it, even if the dramatic forum politics have blinded people to that. I've come to an understanding that there are decent arguments from all angles, but they all also have significant room to improve.
(07-02-2016, 07:43 PM)Teerin Wrote: Push for what you believe is right, but know that there's always a constructive way to phrase your posts, and giving up hope is the easy way out.
(07-02-2016, 07:43 PM)Teerin Wrote: To the developers who are not on strike, I commend you for continuing to work despite the forums being on fire. Same for those among the community who have kept flying in-game.
(07-02-2016, 07:43 PM)Teerin Wrote: we as staff do not have to agree on everything with each other, but we should work more in concert. Same goes for the community - please, disagree! But be civil, for goodness' sake! It's a simple concept to grasp, but this started off with people forgetting some of the basic principles of human interpersonal communication. Yes, it's the internet where people are rude, and no, that shouldn't be a bannable offense, but that's hardly an excuse to act so poorly to one another. And, if you hold a semblance of power, stand by your statements and procedures, until you publicly announce a change
(07-02-2016, 07:43 PM)Teerin Wrote: There is no need for this community to actually fall apart.
(07-02-2016, 07:43 PM)Teerin Wrote: Listen to each other, give respect, treat everyone (regardless of your opinion of them) fairly, and most importantly, don't be an imbecile.
As much as I've burned out of this game, and as many people as I've gotten to particularly dislike in this community, I wouldn't like to see this place dead with, like, two people on the server during "peak times". (I've seen the Crossfire servers. Thinking of Discovery as empty as that place gets me sad every time.) I've had a lot of fun around here and every once in a while I (used to outside of conn) log in and do things to keep me from going insane from the boredom if I have nothing else to do. And sometimes it even worked. btw unban meph so we can conn thanks
I don't think Discovery will recover from something like this though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's pretty demotivating when the player count is as small as 50 people during times when it should be at least 100, so these days I just log for conn alone.
(07-02-2016, 10:09 PM)Yber Wrote: come again, you saw all the evidence that the people banned haven't even been given yet?
Well, I had to find it myself through asking different people, and browsing the forums as a Moderator. So I doubt it was "all" of the evidence, and I suppose it would be a lot of different things to collect up.
(07-02-2016, 10:19 PM)Phantom Wrote: I don't think Discovery will recover from something like this though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is sort of what I was referring to, with how easy it is to give up hope. Call me an optimist, but I'm also a rationalist, and I do see the community surviving. Excessive pessimism and negativity are part of the harmful self perpetuating cycle.
Looking at all the things happening both parties did bad , first administration team they gave 6 most active and 4 faction leaders a shadow ban, I think admins didn't saw it coming but community reacted more then needed. Both sides should take time and try to solve this drama from another point of view, seeing both sides of coin , without keeping in mind favor for anyone , if someone is wrong then he is wrong no matter if he is a staff member or a friend