(07-15-2016, 08:11 AM)Alley Wrote: I'm probably going to get flamed for this post but whatever.
You don't end up in the administration's crosshairs by pure Warframe RNG. I personally was too busy to really care about what was going on when the vote showed up but when I skimmed through the thread and saw the names up for vote there was actually very little names that made me wonder how they ended up there.
The way the thing was done is crap, everybody agrees on that. Permaban is overkill for most as we're not even talking about the same offenses. However is the reasoning that led to this 100% flawed? Not fully I think. Something good will come out of it anyway. It's a reminder to the admins not to rush decisions and a good warning to the cool kids to stop with the "I only care about my fun" attitude that's grown more and more rampant over the years.
The people banned play almost no differently than anyone else in this game. I don't know if you've ever par taken in a raid or some other form of ingame pvp besides conn. But when pushed to the limit EVERYONE pulls drastic measures to ensure they win. I used to do it a ton. If you think the "I only care about my fun" attitude exists only/mainly in these people, you're very wrong. Going off of that judgement there are soooooooooooo many people that should be banned.
I'm not flaming you here, but that's a really bad reason/means to ban everyone on this server. Everyone has played dirty, none of these people have done it worse than some others on this game.
Let's not mention the part where you say there is Skype evidence, when admins have said multiple times Skype stuff is irrelevant to sanctions.
(07-14-2016, 04:48 PM)Jansen Wrote: The so called "official Dev strike" has added another layer to this already rather complex decision. If we decide to revert the decision, we are going to open a way for every further unpopular decision to be reverted by such a 'strike' and we as Admins essentially lose every bit of authority we need to keep the server running and community intact. If we decide to keep the decision, then the Developers involved might stop working and we certainly look like cruel rulers, which might make things look less appealing for members, newcomers or returning people.
The people that complain that our decision takes too long or that claim that they could decide this much better and faster than we can, how would you decide?
Is this something that you would decide without trying to take every possible outcome and its consequences into account, or is it something that you would try to think through as well as you can?
This is the important part. You're more afraid about losing your so called authority than harming the server by banning people who should not have been banned given that people who did much worse weren't.
Authority isn't something that you earn or lose, it's something that you have. Authority is having server commands to ban people, delete things, etc. The word that you want here is credibility, which is much more important than authority, and is what you're losing by the second. You have credibility when you abide the rules, stick to them and apply common sense on judgement. Yes, you can decide not to send evidence and ignore all the rules that you admins made, of course. That's your authority, and that destroys your credibility. Because it is credibility that holds a community together, not authority. Authority won't stop me from deleting Discovery Freelancer in my computer because the people in charge of the game are simply not reliable and completely irresponsible, concerned about whether people will obey them or not.
To solve this, all you need to do is literally explain to the people that were banned why they were banned, you don't even need evidence. Once you've done that you review whether they should be banned or not over the things you explained to them, and you unban those that you banned unjustly, such as @Mephistoles or @Karst, who were literally harmless to the gameplay and server enjoyment. If you're going to say that Mephistoles and Karst did a 3v1 and then sundived 1 minute later, then you're going to have to ban pretty much any other player that has ever undocked from a base in this game.
(07-14-2016, 04:48 PM)Jansen Wrote: [align=justify]Why does this take so long?
The so called "official Dev strike" has added another layer to this already rather complex decision. If we decide to revert the decision, we are going to open a way for every further unpopular decision to be reverted by such a 'strike' and we as Admins essentially lose every bit of authority we need to keep the server running and community intact.
There is just one mistake in what you are saying: you have already lost authority and the only way to regain it, is to prove that you (as in: the staff) can get things right. I am rather sure that there would not be strikes and huge uproar over weeks if the decision that was pressed through had not been obviously wrong. Let's not lose sight on who started it, and who reacted to an unjust and clearly wrong action.
Quote: If we decide to keep the decision, then the Developers involved might stop working and we certainly look like cruel rulers, which might make things look less appealing for members, newcomers or returning people.
You got that one right. If you make a mistake, and you are told by a lot of people, and - if you even stop to think for a moment - you realize yourself that it was kind of weird... then you fix it.
What is so hard about admitting that the process was deeply flawed? Everybody can see that anyway. It looks foolish if there are no changes in the decision when more and more admit that "it could have been done better/differently/...).
What is so hard about setting up a procedure that does not threaten everybody who critizises green/yellows and has mighty enemies from being banned on a whim?
If I said - just for example - that an Admin is abusing his admin powers to bully a player and that a dev still has not managed to merge fields and newbies are terribly confused about dozens of inactive fields... will I be put on an obscure list of personae non grata and a secret vote with single majority will be held in which my enemies in green/yellow will decide my fate? What can I say, what can't I say? This is making me furious!
Your decision to ban people who clearly do not deserve it has made Disco less appealing. It has an especially direct impact on those senior players who normally drive roleplay, start initiatives, organise groups and activity. I'll be blunt: The environment your decision and the delayed fixing has caused, makes it impossible for me to have fun in Disco.
Quote:The people that complain that our decision takes too long or that claim that they could decide this much better and faster than we can, how would you decide?
It is easy and I cannot understand why you are taking that long.
Step 1: compile all evidence you have.
Step 2: look at it.
Step 3: If the reason to ban is that the person was nasty to the staff, but not to the community: unban. It is easy to check by looking at the criminal register to see whether a person is toxic to the community, or only a nasty critic towards staff.
Step 4: If the accused player has been a problem for the players, for the people playing on the server, a troll, a bully, and if this can be proven by a look at the quantity and quality of sanctions, then punish that player.
If you want a list on who should stay banned, open a poll. Or ask 30 veteran players who can say something about the people in the list because everybody in this group perfectly knows who did nothing to harm the community, and just stepped on staff toes to earn this.
Both methods would very likely show that you punished very different people for something that is not even a crime in the first place.
Seriously, fix it.
You are ruining Disco, not the dev strike, not the players who do not feel like playing in such an atmosphere.
It is the staff that has to take responsibility.
Do that, finally, and we can go back to some kind of normality and focus on the game, and not the shady and bad politics and infighting for power that seems to be at least 50 % of Disco nowadays.
This inability to get it done is frustrating beyond anything I have ever seen in an online community.