(09-12-2017, 10:22 AM)Yber Wrote: I don't need to use half the stuff writen there to beat you or anyone better than you, so maybe you should get off your high horse.
Not to mention that you obviously have not read anything. As I said, people like you who want someone else to play the game for them are a waste of time and air.

It's funny how you people would rather have a good player teach everyone else rather than become good yourselves and teach the people you so fiercily say need to learn. And since you seem to know a lot better than any of us how to show them I'm sure you'd do much better than I ever could, mister easier-to-beat-than-lvl1-npc.

(09-12-2017, 10:41 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I read it all, and none of the things written there were unknown to me.

I dont want anyone to play the game for me.

I dont want you to give me private lessons.

I dont think you would beat me that easily.

I dont suck at pvp.

I've given private lessons to lots of people, and I've written pvp tutorials.

(09-12-2017, 10:19 AM)Antonio Wrote: That doesn't mean discovery shouldn't have noob tubes, and old sidewidners were a great system for that where you had to give up a gun to use a missile, something a vet would never do and a noob would always do. CMs worked fine enough, sidewinders had balanced stats and they hit about 1/3rd of the time and with proper manouvers you could dodge some of them. I remember fights with and against IMG in the Taus, all of them had old sidewinders or firestalkers and nobody complained, it was a great "shortcut" without breaking anything for the aces. If anything, we need more additions like that one. Small shortcuts are fine, as long as they're not 400ms unCMable undodgeable missiles.

Tunderer Wrote:There's not enough newbies for other newbies to kill, they only get slaughtered by vets. If the newbies try to win by numbers, they get stigmatized for being gankers. But, for some reason, the vets will never get stigmatized for seal-clubbing.

Tunderer Wrote:If the newbie doesn't even drop the vet's shield, the newbie won't have fun, but if he does any damage, if he makes at least a small contribution to the fight, that is when everything changes. Players who feel useless will quit, players who feel useful will stay.

(09-12-2017, 11:43 AM)Jack_Henderson Wrote:

Spoiler

(09-12-2017, 10:19 AM)Antonio Wrote: That doesn't mean discovery shouldn't have noob tubes, and old sidewidners were a great system for that where you had to give up a gun to use a missile, something a vet would never do and a noob would always do. CMs worked fine enough, sidewinders had balanced stats and they hit about 1/3rd of the time and with proper manouvers you could dodge some of them. I remember fights with and against IMG in the Taus, all of them had old sidewinders or firestalkers and nobody complained, it was a great "shortcut" without breaking anything for the aces. If anything, we need more additions like that one. Small shortcuts are fine, as long as they're not 400ms unCMable undodgeable missiles.

This.
I agree with every point.

I would immediately go back to that version where even an inexperienced player could at some point contribute a little, while not really competing on the same level. That's fair: the good do still win, but the bad can at least play the same part of the game without being as effective an opponent as a cow in a slaughterhouse - with the same amount of "fun" attached.

Most people I have come into contact with by leading a newbie faction could never hit hull and damage superior players. Shield hits, possible. Hull, pactically never in any meaningful form. I would say that frustration about this inability to be useful has been the constant problem for many years - speaking from the pov of new players on Disco who I met.

Missiles helped, and I am in favour of them. And before I get flamed again, or vets log Sidewinder groups for me specifically to prove something: I am not saying that the current Sidewinders are fine. They are not. But the concept of tracking missiles that are useful is - in my opinion - a necessary "small shortcut", as Antonio pointed out.

Tunderer Wrote:There's not enough newbies for other newbies to kill, they only get slaughtered by vets. If the newbies try to win by numbers, they get stigmatized for being gankers. But, for some reason, the vets will never get stigmatized for seal-clubbing.

Also full agreement.

The group of snub-pvpers who initiate, organise or just log for snub pvp has become so small that whenever I log for a fight, I can almost guarantee to be confronted with at least a few of the group of very good players. No attack there against anybody, you are also just playing the game like I do.

However, with a pool that small and filled with quite a lot of very powerful sharks, the small fish will be gone fast. And that's where we are, imo, at the moment in Disco snub pvp. Too few small fish with too little chances to ever even become bigger because frustration deters even getting to the stage of "let's become better, I can do this."

Furthermore, the new 2-hour-death-rule sucks. It punishes those who are bad and makes losing fights even more painful by adding unnecessary punishment. It discourages the attitude that I tried to instill in new members "just throw yourself into every fight you see". I even see it in myself. I avoid fights when I know that dying would kill off what I want to do afterwards by 2 hour rule. Revert that one, asap. It does not add anything, but discourages a healthy "just go for it even if you explode" attitude to pvp.

Tunderer Wrote:If the newbie doesn't even drop the vet's shield, the newbie won't have fun, but if he does any damage, if he makes at least a small contribution to the fight, that is when everything changes. Players who feel useless will quit, players who feel useful will stay.

That's what I meant when I said that pvp balancing needs to make snub pvp more inclusive so that more people actually do it, more newbies are in the pool and stay in the pool, and less players just go "ye, I'm *****, won't do it, is no fun. I'll just trade (and then leave silently when pvp becomes the real currency)".

Of course many veterans and likely most aces likely do not care for those who "are not determined enough to actually put effort into it", but even those should realize that a full arena is better than an empty one, and that the good, big fights in the past were good and big because more players actually participated in them.

Quote:There is also a change I suggested some time on TS and it is to implement guns that are copies of some existing weapons (Flashpoint, PG, Heavy Flashpoint), but they take no energy and do less damage. The DPS drop should be significant (about 50%) so that someone using the regular version of the gun and hitting every shot does more DPS than someone using the no energy one.

(09-12-2017, 11:18 AM)Yber Wrote:

(09-12-2017, 10:41 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I read it all, and none of the things written there were unknown to me.

I dont want anyone to play the game for me.

I dont want you to give me private lessons.

I dont think you would beat me that easily.

I dont suck at pvp.

I've given private lessons to lots of people, and I've written pvp tutorials.

Please spend 30 minutes telling everyone about all your tricks, and all the ways to counter them, and all the ways to beat you.

Go.

Sounds familiar? Because it does not sound to me like you are commenting on "aces" being assholes to newbies or on whether the sidewinder is a good or bad tool.

Nobody is entitled to victory, regardless of spending 1 hour in their lifetime training or 1 hour per day. What they are entitled to is to optimize their training if they want to improve and get better, and I have burned myself over providing the most simple and effective tools for doing so, ranging from ingame "private lessons" to dozens of videos recorded in a ***** 30fps laptop and going as far as writing throughly detailed guides on what I do that lets me survive situations other people don't and applying and countering mechanics and techniques most people can't even do properly.

I know you are not calling me out in particular, but there is little else that can be added to make the learning experience easier for new players, minus arguiably advertising these guides and making them more visible to people.

The point is, people who want to improve have all the tools at their disposal to do so. This was not a problem in 2011 when there were 0 guides of this kind and "aces" geniuly avoided explaining people what sliding was or how it worked.

If you think the material available is not good enough then go do better than I did. Even feel free to record yourself in the best setup possible doing what I explain in the guides to show video examples if you are so inclined, I will do everything I can to help you out in doing so.

If you are not going to do so then you are no better than any of these "aces" you so despise and you have no right to call anyone out over anything.