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+---- Thread: Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? (/showthread.php?tid=10712)
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - Jinx - 07-26-2008
here is a suggestion.. - taken from how homeworld balances it ( or at much as you can compare a RTS with a free roam action simulation )
homeworld ships have very few turrets ( deactivating turrets on ships does not need a wipe )
so here is a theory...
gunships : 3 - 6 turrets
destroyers : 4 turrets
cruisers : 1 weapon, 4 turrets
battlecruisers : 1 weapon, 6 turrets
battleships ( small ) : 6 turrets
battleships ( large ) : 8 turrets
now, you might say "what the hell, why?" - to specialize more on what the actual turrets do. - a gunship could have guns with stats like that:
damage: 500 ( or an alternate turret doing 2000 shield damage for maybe 14.000 energy like a cerberus )
projectile speed: 4000
refire: 3.03
range : 1200
the effect is: the gunship is specialized in taking down fighters - with unmatched accuracy it is able to inflict some 2000 damage to an enemy fighter - while that might not be much more than a fighter can do, the gunboat itself will have a greater defense due to its shields. - so while a fighter cracks the gunboats shields, the gunboat will already tear it down. - the lack of more turrets will make it ineffective against capital ships though with the low refire rate.
destroyers should mount battleship class weapons - but only 4 of them. so they can do a hell lot of damage for their size... but they d be ineffective against bombers and rather unflexible.
cruisers would have one spinal mount weapon like a razor or something that drains so much energy that they can only really mount one ( without a wipe, it would have to be a turret ) - something like the liberty foreward gun. - 100.000 damage for little energy. - this turret should be limited in its arc ( can do that easily, cause the turret itself can be limited like a GB gun ) - the other turrets are GB like... for point defense. - the whole ship would be too slow to fly like a gunboat - so the PD turrets won t work like a hunters weapons on the GB, but only in turret mode.
cruisers and battlecruisers improve this concept at the cost of agility and size.
battleships would have long range weapons with slow refire and slow projectile speeds AND turrets like the gunboat with more damage ( in the end, they are much bigger )
so the GB like PD turret would maybe do 3000 damage and could severely damage a fighter, - but since it only has so few turrets - having a PD turret over an anticap turret can turn the tide of the battle.
so a normal BB turret should be like that:
30.000 damage
1000ms speed
2.5k range
40.0000 energy ( current basic turrets eat around 10k )
0.25 refire
so the battleship would have to choose to give up a lot of weaponpower for antifighter weapons. - if it went all antifighter, it would be useless against even enemy gunboats in numbers - cause its turrets won t outdamage them.
why so few turrets? - cause a choice weighs harder then. - now we have 16 turrets - doesn t matter if i fire with 16 or with 14 turrets - not really. but when i only have 6... i have to choose more wisely.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - Dusty Lens - 07-26-2008
Honestly Jinx, what you're proposing there sounds outstandingly excellent.
Be danged interesting to give it an honest to goodness test to see how it pans out in a realistic environment.
Turrets like those would make NPC capship patrols exceptionally frightening, to say the least.
I suppose my only surface concern would be that speeds of 4000 would move the gunboat's projectile speed from the intended realm of 'effective against its desired class' to 'I win'.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - chopper - 07-26-2008
There are problems, of course, with balancing things perfectly.
For example, as it is now, 2 gunboats can beat the crap out of battleship. Why?
Gunboat has enough shield to go near the BS (some 800-1000m) and dodge until it looses shield.
While he's being shot at, another GB is shooting BS's shield all the time.
Now the GB that lost shield is some 2k away and BS can't hit his hull, so he switches to another GB.
Then the GB who had no shield gets his shield and he starts shooting while the other one is being shot at.
And so on and so on.
Suffice is to say that 2 Lunchboxes, which are one of the biggest GB's, managed to do this to a Zoner Juggernaut without loosing a single bot, only bats.
It was dead before it knew what hit him.
So, in this particular situation, problems are - great GB shield + good anti-cap strategy.
Another thing that Dusty mentioned in another thread is that 2 bombers must be pretty damn good to take on a BS.
That is pretty much true.
There are stories how ANY 2 bombers can take on ANY BS.
That's a lie, and ya all know it.
First thing is, pilots must be able to coordinate.
For example, BS has just a bit of shield, and only one bomber has enough energy to fire a SN.
Now at this moment, the one who has enough energy MUST WAIT for it's shield to raise a bit.
Why is that? If you shoot it off right now, there's a possibility that shield will regen before your buddy gets enough energy to shoot SN in it's hull.
So, you must wait for it's shield to raise a bit, but still one SN should be able to take it down again.
And then the other one shoots the hull.
Also, if a BS player is a good aimer, bombers are very important.
There's no way in hell for 2 Barghests to beat an experienced BS captain.
Same with Thor.
What I'm trying to say is.. 2 average bombers can't take down an average BS captain.
2 good bombers can take any BS down, if they are flying some real bombers (Snubnose, Taiidan, Falcata, Praetorian, Catamaran etc.).
What's the problem here? There's no problem, you lack your bloody fighter protection.
I am sure that a BS with 1 or 2 fighters can take on 2 or even 3 bombers, if fighters now their job.
Especially LF's which can keep their shield down all the time, possibly distract them as well.
Some ships need balancing, yes. Some ships don't.
Making BS's with more armor is not going to help you a lot against bombers.
Against GB's - maybe. Against bombers, not really.
Once BS's shield is down, shaking starts. That's the moment where BS captain is starting to get nervous.
One LF can shake it's view like an earthquake.
Now, if you could somehow fix the shaking thing, it would solve MANY problems for BS pilots.
I'v seen people complain about 2 VHF's taking on a GB. That is fairly easy I must say.
A GB pilot can beat 2 experienced VHF's only if he's a good GB missile user, which isn't hard at all.
But a GB with 2 GB missiles won't be able to take on a BS with another GB.
So, GB's are either one, or the other. They can't be both.
What Tenacity said could also help.
Making GB's with 1000 max range would really help. Exceptions here should be only GB Infernos, GB Battle Razors (which are now pretty useless) and GB Forward guns (again pretty much useless).
That means, all other guns, including cerbs, should have max range at around 1000m.
Cruisers should be able to shoot to some 1500, while BS's should shoot as much as they can now.
Bombers need to keep their SN max range, as it's very slow and only hits the BS.
You can't hit a good Cruiser pilot from 1500 range, no way.
You can't hit a good GB pilot from more then 500-700 range.
So that is ok, I guess.
I think there are problems, but I think we'll never be able to address them all.
Changes are needed, sure, if for nothing else then for the sake of killing the monotony.
But you should all be aware that balance can never be perfect.
There will always be good ships, better ships, crap ships, even crap classes of ships.
What we can try is to lower the difference between them, that's all.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - El Nino - 07-26-2008
Hm, what i'd purpose are changed gunboat turrets, so all fire to about 1000, nothing more than that, or you can easily dodge incoming fire... while firing back at the poor sucker...
No cerebs with 2k range anymore,...
Cruisers with decent 2.5k range for special weapons and lower 2k range for normal weapons... improve armor. Also making them distinctly vulnerable at the back of the ship. Only a few rear firing turrets, so they are easy pray for fighters. Maximizing firepower to front.
Battleships more armor! More power! Pwnzablasta... They are quite alright as they are, IF there were no supernovas, perhaps the new missiles will make a diffrence, but generaly double firepower would work wonders for their protection from bombers.
All in all the basics should be... GB should eat any fighter 1 on 1, and win 2 on 1 if flown right... be destroyed by cruisers due to lack of long range firepower.
Cruisers great firepower for their size, capable of detering many things but fighters. Two should be able to take out a battleship, perhaps 1 standard + 1 battlecruiser should be able to do it at long range, dodging and shield runing and such...
Battleships should be able to take out anything anywhere but would be vulnerable to superior numbers, or even two cruisers.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - chopper - 07-26-2008
4000 speed is an instant hit anywhere bellow 1200m.
I think it was just an example.
1800-2000 speed with 500 damage would do just fine I'd say, especially because bombers must get close to it to hit it.
It would still be damn hard to miss with these.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - Dusty Lens - 07-26-2008
It would also make gunboats less attractive to pirate in! Which is a concept that I find outstandingly epic.
Quickly! To the test mobile!
*looks around for the test mobile*
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - Virus - 07-26-2008
Where do battlecruisers come in all of this? They're an extra class that, in my opinion, needs balancing or removal (quite possibly the way we did that with the Corsair Dread). They could (once again) become the bane of balance...
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - Dusty Lens - 07-26-2008
How many battlecruisers are there?
I'm always lost to this question... I believe that there are two, Liberty and the BH ones. Which currently serve as cerb platforms if I'm not mistaken given their extra large powerplants.
But, it looks like Jinx has provided the solution to that particular question in the form of 6 versus 4 turrets.
<strike>
Though, to be perfectly honest I would just as soon see them become more resilient versions of their lesser cousins than more potent ones.</strike>
Wait, strike that. That would just make the class more attractive than a standard cruiser.
*ponders*
Heck, maybe just remove the PD guns entirely and slap on a second boom stick. Perhaps a specialized one designed to eradicate shields.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - gafwmn - 07-27-2008
ok..here's a few cents worth of my time.
Battleships and Dreadnaughts....should be the baddest ships in the game....with the right support ships(ex-navy here,RL).In my opinion, BS and Dread's should have weap ranges between 4k to 5.5k...I mean come on.....these are the big boys of the fleet.(and thats for the battleship turrets,depending on type....i would really like to see/participate in space battles...not Victorian era broadsides fights).And re-install the 6 turret slots that are there but disabled ( my mod guy found them and reactivated them for our server) .Give it more armor,more power ( and how many of us have been owned by 2 bombers while piloting our pride and joy?..hmmmm...be honest).
BattleCruisers can be thought of in one of 2 ways,depending on how you outfit it....Heavy Cruiser or pocket Battleship.Cruiser guns should have a range of 3.5k to 4.5k (5.5k because of the 2 level 10 turrets).
Cruisers...need more turrets,armor,and power....possibly some of the GB level would be nice...cruiser turret ranges ( again, depending on the type) 2.5k to 4.5k range.
And Gunboats.....think of them as the Little Engine that Could......they are used as heavy recon....anti fighter/bomber.....and for distracting and harrasing larger cap ships....and their turret ranges should be 1k to 3k.
I really would like to see the caps rebalanced....can't have epic space battles for the holo-vids the way they currently are.
And for the idea of strategic weapons.....maybe the all energy consuming spinal mount weapon?....or the freakishly large anti cap-ship missile( anybody read the Honor Harrington books?).
But as a side note....look at the weapons on the Iowa Class Battleship....from 16" guns all the way down to .50 caliber machine guns.Now thats how a battleship should be armed and armored...to the teeth.17" thick armor on the main decks, and 32" thick armor at the waterline belt ( where a torpedo would most likely hit the ship).
Ok...and there's my nickels worth.
Capships, increasingly slower fighters? Or strategic weapons? - timmychen - 07-27-2008
Dusty - There's also the IMG one. That makes... three!:laugh:
Gafwmn - Reason why we can't make Battleships the uberpwnzor ships that they should be is because they're accessible by anyone. Anyone who takes the time to trade the 800+ million (extra for armor upgrade) would have access to a weapon of death.. is this how it should be? We can't really restrict caps either because that would ruin the game for many..
Question - is it possible to remove the shaking effect on a Battleship when it is hit without any shields?