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+--- Thread: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback (/showthread.php?tid=111594)
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Curios - 02-10-2014
@Pav
Looking forward to see it. But I'm just judging by experience. in fact I lost my faith in Rheinland a long time ago so you have a chance to impress me.
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Landers - 02-10-2014
On the topic.
What I've seen and heard from our members was the encounter, which ended with the destruction of one of our ships. Well, by common sense, you'd have known we're part of the Military, both ID and IFF, even RP wise. In such encounters (between different groups with the same not generic ID/IFF), it could happen that one side decides to be cocky, it all depends on the RP builded around the character.
Acceptable, if characters have bad relations with each other and you have a lot of kind of ways, to answer on that. You chose one outside of your authority, happens. InRP, our Hauptmann rightly may think he doesn't have to be responsible of his actions in front of a Gefreiter. Though you won't see ODF officers commanding [RM] low ranked pilots around. The two groups are not in subordinate relationship.
@Curios
We'll do our best to prove.
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Pancakes - 02-10-2014
Landers back in Rheinland?
Time to get back on my Corsair - this will start to get fun again.
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Coin - 02-10-2014
1. RM clone. Really? Pavel, I must confess to being surprised at your involvement in this venture. Im not sure we need an RM clone. Why not just join the rm? is there something you have against their leaders?
2. WAYYYYY too many ships. Twice as many as you have members
3. Same goes for ranks. six ranks and seven members. you never need more than three for a faction. even in the height of the global server, when i was in a faction with over 100 members, we had just three ranks.
4. wouldnt this faction be better served by being the escort wing of a mining faction? pfff, you'd need to relinquish the caps though.... which would be a good thing. the corsairs are very very good at shooting down capital ships, thanks to the daily gamma armadas of yesteryear. a good mix of bombers, fighters and a gunboat will make all but the largest pirate flotilla reach for their brown trousers
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Mímir - 02-10-2014
Hey answering as a regular joe, probably shouldn't, but here's my 2 cents:
1) Don't you remember Southern Alliance and how that turned into [LN] of today? A regional task force or flotilla is a pretty sound concept, especially in the light of new Omega systems and Rheinland generally not having done much to protect Rheinland assets and corporations there. We're just forgetting our Discovery history. This regional focus sets ODF radically apart from [RM], and personally it motivates me a whole lot more to play when I have a fixed mission rather than have to patrol an entire empty house.
2) Options are a boon, if someone wants to pilot a RT over a Wraith then why not? It's not a "you must have all these ships" list, but a "hey here are the ships you can choose from" list. I have a hard time seeing how and why this relates to the number of active members?
3) Ye that's maybe true, I am a faction nub so I don't know.
4) In the light of mod developments and Rheinland's loose grip on the Omegas, this concept tickles my fancy a whole lot. Also regarding caps, I think I am the only one really pushing for them, (so relax ppl) but I do see that it is much much easier to just ditch them up-front to avoid the standard community reaction. It's too bad though because some people (including myself) absolutely despise bombers and would be bored to death by flying them, but firepower is needed to counter enemy caps. Why do I have to be forced to fly a no-skill bomber when it makes all sorts of sense to fly a cruiser or battleship, which I happen to enjoy, in the same situation? Also if anything the gunboat class is the ship type that wrecks fights, not cruisers and battleships IMO. (Yes that was my personal pro-cap rant, in no way representative of the opinions of the faction and its members).
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Pavel - 02-10-2014
Just to add to what Mímir said, and answer your questions Coin, this isn't RM clone, as our goals, execution of them and roleplay differ significantly from what RM was/is. As I told Curios we'll develop roleplay of our faction; many say that Rheinland/Omegas are dead (not true), but there indeed is some activity problem. We'd like to help with that too.
This also isn't meant to be escort wing of some mining faction, this is navy faction. It may look different, because so far this roleplay aspect of Rheinland law enforcement forces wasn't played much - for us it's just another reason to offer community something new. This also isn't the final shape of our roleplay and faction as a whole - I repeat, we'll develop.
Besides, what's so weird in seeing me in some faction?
PS
Answering on ships and ranks subjects, this actually gives us choice what ships our members can fly. Flying "civlian" ships is encouraged to roleplay out fact that majority of RM is still at Libertonian front and it will take some time before main navy forces move back to inner Rheinland - in the result we're forced to rely upon any ships we can get, and that includes flying local civilian crafts, constructed on request or given to us by corporations.
When it comes to ranks, you are right, there is no need to have many ranks, and there really aren't - 2 of them are for forum RP only and as such practically don't exist in-game. Having just a few absolutely necessary ranks was one of the goals during making that faction. Path to inactivity is paved with too many ranks, there are numerous examples of that in Disco history.
When you look at that, we only have four ranks, from cadet to captain - rookie, trained soldier, veteran, officer. I trust this will work just fine.
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Coin - 02-11-2014
(02-10-2014, 08:00 PM)Mímir Wrote: Hey answering as a regular joe, probably shouldn't, but here's my 2 cents:The southern alliance were a loose conglomeration of players who claimed the 'southern' half of the map of new york, (and i think cali and texas, but not sure), as the outcome of a truly epic handbags-at-dawn-panty-waister-raid when someone was upset by what someone else said when the second someone had gotten their knickers in a twist over what the first someone had said when THEY had their knickers in a twist.
1) Don't you remember Southern Alliance and how that turned into [LN] of today? A regional task force or flotilla is a pretty sound concept, especially in the light of new Omega systems and Rheinland generally not having done much to protect Rheinland assets and corporations there. We're just forgetting our Discovery history. This regional focus sets ODF radically apart from [RM], and personally it motivates me a whole lot more to play when I have a fixed mission rather than have to patrol an entire empty house.
Now, considering that your recent interaction with the official faction has lead to them being sanctioned, has a split occurred within the ranks of the RM. Are you, in fact, mutineers, protesting against the levels of corruption and graft within the kanz' maister's office? (if so, excellent RP idea. if not, its an excellent RP idea*; getting back to the humble basics of protecting citizens and fighting pirates)
(02-10-2014, 08:00 PM)Mímir Wrote: 2) Options are a boon, if someone wants to pilot a RT over a Wraith then why not? It's not a "you must have all these ships" list, but a "hey here are the ships you can choose from" list. I have a hard time seeing how and why this relates to the number of active members?too many ships seems like god moding. military faction, you gotta wear THIS uniform, not the uniform of the other regiment just cos red is yr favourite colour and really brings out the highlights in your blood-shot eyes.
too many ships seems like pvp faction 'fly what you can kill in'
(02-10-2014, 08:00 PM)Mímir Wrote: 4) In the light of mod developments and Rheinland's loose grip on the Omegas, this concept tickles my fancy a whole lot.thank you*
(02-10-2014, 08:00 PM)Mímir Wrote: Also regarding caps, I think I am the only one really pushing for them, (so relax ppl) but I do see that it is much much easier to just ditch them up-front to avoid the standard community reaction. It's too bad though because some people (including myself) absolutely despise bombers and would be bored to death by flying them, but firepower is needed to counter enemy caps. Why do I have to be forced to fly a no-skill bomber when it makes all sorts of sense to fly a cruiser or battleship, which I happen to enjoy, in the same situation? Also if anything the gunboat class is the ship type that wrecks fights, not cruisers and battleships IMO. (Yes that was my personal pro-cap rant, in no way representative of the opinions of the faction and its members).you fly a snub and like it because that fits the RP of your character - if you are RPing a 13-year-old cat-girl admiral in her (its'?) very own shiny battleship that she manages single handedly, then credibility issues are raised. I suggest you hasten your furry tail to flight school, and learn the weakness of your arch-nemeses.
(02-10-2014, 08:32 PM)Pavel Wrote: Just to add to what Mímir said, and answer your questions Coin, this isn't RM clone, as our goals, execution of them and roleplay differ significantly from what RM was/is. As I told Curios we'll develop roleplay of our faction; many say that Rheinland/Omegas are dead (not true), but there indeed is some activity problem. We'd like to help with that too.if you're escorting miners, then you're playing as the escort wing. if you're escorting miners and traders and hunting pirates, then you're playing as RM, or, alternatively, is the RFP still active? im sure that they can have one cap, and then there can be no more scraps with the RM, because every soldier is subject to both civilian and military law - police are allowed to arrest soldiers, but soldiers are not allowed to shoot police.
(02-10-2014, 08:32 PM)Pavel Wrote: This also isn't meant to be escort wing of some mining faction, this is navy faction. It may look different, because so far this roleplay aspect of Rheinland law enforcement forces wasn't played much - for us it's just another reason to offer community something new. This also isn't the final shape of our roleplay and faction as a whole - I repeat, we'll develop.rheinland law enforcement - RFP would fit better if that is the role that you are thinking of
(02-10-2014, 08:32 PM)Pavel Wrote: Besides, what's so weird in seeing me in some faction?nothing *shifty eyes*
(02-10-2014, 08:32 PM)Pavel Wrote: PS
Answering on ships and ranks subjects, this actually gives us choice what ships our members can fly. Flying "civlian" ships is encouraged to roleplay out fact that majority of RM is still at Libertonian front and it will take some time before main navy forces move back to inner Rheinland - in the result we're forced to rely upon any ships we can get, and that includes flying local civilian crafts, constructed on request or given to us by corporations.
When it comes to ranks, you are right, there is no need to have many ranks, and there really aren't - 2 of them are for forum RP only and as such practically don't exist in-game. Having just a few absolutely necessary ranks was one of the goals during making that faction. Path to inactivity is paved with too many ranks, there are numerous examples of that in Disco history.
When you look at that, we only have four ranks, from cadet to captain - rookie, trained soldier, veteran, officer. I trust this will work just fine.
ranks* - thats much better. I wouldn't have counted recruit as a rank anyway, as they either progress to full member or they wander off and do something else.
Ships - The police wear police uniforms. firemen do not get to wear spec. ops. gear just cos it looks cool. It breaks the fourth wall and interrupts the suspension of disbelief. And it makes you look like pvp faction - 'fly what you are most likely to score a kill in'. The titan is a horrible ship to fly (its got better, but its no eagle). The templar also. But my baffie flew the templar and the challenger, and the sair flies a titan. Staying in character is important on an RP server. We as a community are judging the actions of a global moderator, and when you propose such a wide-ranging ship-list, it gives permission for others to do the same. Rot starts at the core, Muad'dib.
*it's a good idea not just because it was my idea, but ya know, that does play a factor in my evaluation system
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Coin - 02-11-2014
double post - too lazy to edit.
Play as RFP (if still availabubble) cracking down on the corruption/laziness of the RM - who are losing the war with liberty, and are only one step away from the firing squad.
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Mímir - 02-11-2014
(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: too many ships seems like god moding. military faction, you gotta wear THIS uniform, not the uniform of the other regiment just cos red is yr favourite colour and really brings out the highlights in your blood-shot eyes.
too many ships seems like pvp faction 'fly what you can kill in'
It's a military faction, so it would seem realistic they have access to all the civilian ships anyone else can use freely, along with the usual military ships. What's holding the producers of the RT back from slinging 10 of them to the Military? I really don't see the issue. If these ships aren't overpowered in the hands of Freelancers and house corporations, I fail to see how it gives this faction such an "edge". As Pavel said, part of the idea is that Rheinland Military is getting killed by Liberty, and we're stuck with the second best gear in the Omegas - all the Rheinland Military ships have a "Limited numbers" behind them. Did you also know that Rheinland Military no longer has its own Light Fighter, are we then to supposed to ditch the entire class in the name of some vague concept of "purity"?
Besides if I was fighting a war I wouldn't care if the color of my uniform was red - I would care about not getting killed whilst killing the enemy at the same time, so that's a pretty bad example.
(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: you fly a snub and like it because that fits the RP of your character - if you are RPing a 13-year-old cat-girl admiral in her (its'?) very own shiny battleship that she manages single handedly, then credibility issues are raised. I suggest you hasten your furry tail to flight school, and learn the weakness of your arch-nemeses.
No I fly a LF because it fits my idea of fun gameplay, that is the sole reason - and also the very same reason I don't want to be forced to fly bombers. Believe it or not I play this game to have fun.
(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: if you're escorting miners, then you're playing as the escort wing. if you're escorting miners and traders and hunting pirates, then you're playing as RM, or, alternatively, is the RFP still active?
I think things can and should be a fair bit more nuanced than that. Would it be better if it said "political terrorists"/"foreign aggressors"/"dissidents" rather than "pirates" in the write-up, just to underline how and why this is a job for the military? Moreover, and this is just my own personal observation, Bretonia is building up in O3, colonizing Sprague and everything - it would make real sense for Rheinland Military to up its activities in the Omegas. There's a new resource-rich Omega system as well; it would seem foolish for Rheinland Military to just sit idle by and watch someone else swoop in and reap the benefits or watch it deteriorate into a haven for piracy and terrorism.
(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: Ships - The police wear police uniforms. firemen do not get to wear spec. ops. gear just cos it looks cool. It breaks the fourth wall and interrupts the suspension of disbelief.
Wat? Civilian gear can hardly be compared to "spec ops gear", your analogy is way out there. If it however was a civilian faction that wanted to fly Wraiths, you'd be closer to the mark.
(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: And it makes you look like pvp faction - 'fly what you are most likely to score a kill in'.
Honestly I would never think that if I got jumped by Rheinland Military in a RT or Waran. I would wonder why they fly the cheap second grade crap when they got nice and shiny faction ships; and I would ask about it. I wouldn't go "hmmmph PVP-whores" and I really think we need to collectively pack up our assumptions and random interpretations and burn them once and for all.
(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: The titan is a horrible ship to fly (its got better, but its no eagle). The templar also. But my baffie flew the templar and the challenger, and the sair flies a titan. Staying in character is important on an RP server.
Are you saying that Titan and Templar are bad ships, worse than the Eagle? Can I have some of what you are smoking?
Also are you in this analogy comparing the mix of two opposed factions' ships to our mix of our own faction and civilian ships? Do you know that quite a few navy/military/armed forces official faction players use their respective house civilian guns, is that a problem too?
RE: Omega Defense Flotilla - faction information & feedback - Coin - 02-11-2014
(02-11-2014, 04:35 AM)Mímir Wrote:Not so. I only had access to the H&K SA80, which actively attracts sand, and requires 11 hours cleaning for every third shot fired. The Xe guys had all the toys, and we suffered along without complaining. Whats the point of having military only ships if the military doesnt fly them? InRP, the Kanzler approved the research and production of the shipline - why, InRP, does it make sense to fly the lower-tech levelof the civilian stuff? or fly Vipers? Civy is civy, military is military. A military faction that said 'ya, sure, you can fly our ship' is doing themselves a disfavour - if someone thinks the ship is that cool, tell 'em to join up to fly it. Similarly, NOT flying their special tech means that they are not advertising their uniqueness. "whats the point of joining that military faction when i can fly the exact same ship line as an indy?"(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: too many ships seems like god moding. military faction, you gotta wear THIS uniform, not the uniform of the other regiment just cos red is yr favourite colour and really brings out the highlights in your blood-shot eyes.
too many ships seems like pvp faction 'fly what you can kill in'
It's a military faction, so it would seem realistic they have access to all the civilian ships anyone else can use freely, along with the usual military ships. What's holding the producers of the RT back from slinging 10 of them to the Military? I really don't see the issue. If these ships aren't overpowered in the hands of Freelancers and house corporations, I fail to see how it gives this faction such an "edge". As Pavel said, part of the idea is that Rheinland Military is getting killed by Liberty, and we're stuck with the second best gear in the Omegas - all the Rheinland Military ships have a "Limited numbers" behind them. Did you also know that Rheinland Military no longer has its own Light Fighter, are we then to supposed to ditch the entire class in the name of some vague concept of "purity"?
Besides if I was fighting a war I wouldn't care if the color of my uniform was red - I would care about not getting killed whilst killing the enemy at the same time, so that's a pretty bad example.
It wasn't an example it was a humorous analogy. Simply put, RL air forces don't get to use civilian craft 'cos they suit my flying style'. A uniform is a noun, as well as an adjective. If everyone is in a different ship, they cannot be said to be uniform, which means "One Shape".
(02-11-2014, 04:35 AM)Mímir Wrote:im not saying that you CAN'T be a furry catmiral, i;m saying it damages the credibility of a faction so to do, and that Pavel has leadership responsibilities that are attendant upon his position, and when there is conflict between the two, it is the server, the community as well as the player who suffers. For example? BulldogNK and the .addcash saga.(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: you fly a snub and like it because that fits the RP of your character - if you are RPing a 13-year-old cat-girl admiral in her (its'?) very own shiny battleship that she manages single handedly, then credibility issues are raised. I suggest you hasten your furry tail to flight school, and learn the weakness of your arch-nemeses.
No I fly a LF because it fits my idea of fun gameplay, that is the sole reason - and also the very same reason I don't want to be forced to fly bombers. Believe it or not I play this game to have fun.
(02-11-2014, 04:35 AM)Mímir Wrote:granted. Why start a separate faction? why not be [RM]K.VonRichter(ODF)?(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: if you're escorting miners, then you're playing as the escort wing. if you're escorting miners and traders and hunting pirates, then you're playing as RM, or, alternatively, is the RFP still active?
I think things can and should be a fair bit more nuanced than that. Would it be better if it said "political terrorists"/"foreign aggressors"/"dissidents" rather than "pirates" in the write-up, just to underline how and why this is a job for the military? Moreover, and this is just my own personal observation, Bretonia is building up in O3, colonizing Sprague and everything - it would make real sense for Rheinland Military to up its activities in the Omegas. There's a new resource-rich Omega system as well; it would seem foolish for Rheinland Military to just sit idle by and watch someone else swoop in and reap the benefits or watch it deteriorate into a haven for piracy and terrorism.
(02-11-2014, 04:35 AM)Mímir Wrote:ok. Firemen don't get to use the FisherPrice™ My First Fireman Set, instead of the stuff that has been supplied to them by logistics. I apologise profusely if what you thought i said was not in fact what i meant. Either the civy gear is BETTER than the military stuff, which tends towards the conclusion that the decision to allow it in the line up is predicated by a preference for collecting #0000FF messages, OR, the civilian gear is WORSE, which denotes an ooRP predilection.(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: Ships - The police wear police uniforms. firemen do not get to wear spec. ops. gear just cos it looks cool. It breaks the fourth wall and interrupts the suspension of disbelief.
Wat? Civilian gear can hardly be compared to "spec ops gear", your analogy is way out there. If it however was a civilian faction that wanted to fly Wraiths, you'd be closer to the mark.
(02-11-2014, 04:35 AM)Mímir Wrote:Either the civy gear is BETTER than the military stuff, which tends towards the conclusion that the decision to allow it in the line up is predicated by a preference for collecting #0000FF messages, OR, the civilian gear is WORSE, which denotes an ooRP predilection.(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: And it makes you look like pvp faction - 'fly what you are most likely to score a kill in'.
Honestly I would never think that if I got jumped by Rheinland Military in a RT or Waran. I would wonder why they fly the cheap second grade crap when they got nice and shiny faction ships; and I would ask about it. I wouldn't go "hmmmph PVP-whores" and I really think we need to collectively pack up our assumptions and random interpretations and burn them once and for all.
(02-11-2014, 04:35 AM)Mímir Wrote:The vanilla eagle is the most agile VHF - it's been recently nerfed, which in my opinion is a mistake, but w/e. My point is this. Not flying faction ships, not have restricted tech means that everyone starts flying eagles with tizzies and nommie blasters, and there is no variation.(02-11-2014, 03:34 AM)Coin Wrote: The titan is a horrible ship to fly (its got better, but its no eagle). The templar also. But my baffie flew the templar and the challenger, and the sair flies a titan. Staying in character is important on an RP server.
Are you saying that Titan and Templar are bad ships, worse than the Eagle? Can I have some of what you are smoking?
So far, I'm afraid to say that i really wanted to see this idea get off the ground. It has a few things right about the mix, such as getting back to the basics of attacking pirates, escorting, and protecting, having a limited ZOI (kinda guarantees interaction. The sticking points for me is that no-one has explained why this cannot be done as part of the RM. The vehemence that my constructive criticisms have met leads me to believe that it is the SHIPLINE, and not any personality clashes with the RM leadership that mean that the ODF have to be separate. I have read nothing but attempted justifications for allowing OORP ships, and I have read nothing about why this cannot be done as part of the RM.
I humbly suggest, in the interests of decorum, that a large exotic cheroot is partaken of before replying. Any and every new offering is subjected to the same analysis: is your idea of 'fun' going to spoil mine? Is Omega seven going to be over-run with bluemsg hunters flying capships, doing the job of the RM, which will further weaken a faction that is suffering for activity due to the closure of the jumpgates leading towards texas?
In what way is your offering so special that we can overlook the fact that it contributes to the dearth of activity of another? Why is your idea of fun more valuable than rule 0.0?[/color]