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+---- Thread: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. (/showthread.php?tid=125532)
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Christensen - 02-01-2015
(02-01-2015, 01:47 PM)Tachyon Wrote: "l2p scrub"
>this is how a game works though
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Them tears keep me alive all day long.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Karst - 02-01-2015
1.) Sidewinders and Firestalkers are a temporary fix until we figure out what to do with them, but rest assured they will never ever be the absolutely ridiculous OP crap they were previously that completely ruined any group fight they were used in.
I don't know how anybody could argue that a single gun that does 80-90% of the damage total to an enemy hull was in any way balanced.
Of course this makes running in a snub easier, but at least the shield bubble fix makes it a bit harder for the worst offenders here.
2.) See above, once balanced stats for tracking missiles are worked out they will become more useful again. And there's always CDs to make them non-useless.
But aside from that, CMs don't really need justification to use, since you'll have them on any ship that doesn't use a cloak regardless. It's not like there's a tradeoff that they would now find themselves on the wrong side of.
3.) Mysterious whispers say that some sort of fix or solution is coming for this. We will see.
4.) That's a problem with player attitudes for which unfortunately there is no balance fix.
5.) Nothing was "equalized" by missiles unless you consider a fight that consists pretty much entirely of people pressing the fire missile key a nice and equal affair. It's not like noobs would stand a chance against much better players in a missilespamfest.
The fact is, discovery pvp has a steep learning curve and I think that's alright. It's kind of a basic principle that simply needs to be accepted. The upshot is that improving at pvp and becoming successful in fights is a very rewarding experience, and something that I think is one of the main draws of the game for many people.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Haste - 02-01-2015
"Missiles are balanced."
"Now that missiles are (temporarily) not really that good, I went from being able to kill things to being unable to kill anything at all."
Sorry, I couldn't resist pointing that out.
Seriously though, I intend to have a look at Sidewinders and Firestalkers sometime soon. Don't expect them to be objectively better than the single gun slot they take - like they were in the past - however. After changes, if you're completely hopeless with guns, you'll still be hopeless with a missile added to the mix.
What a few people said in this thread here is also quite true. A few people who up until a few weeks ago were known as utterly useless in snub PvP have recently given it a proper shot, and they're already more threatening in a group fight than all the people combined who prefer moaning about combat difficulty over simply trying their best. Lyth, who posted in this thread, is a pretty good example.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Jack_Henderson - 02-01-2015
Some valid points in the OP post.
We need 1 missile type that tracks (like Sidewinder did) and allows for hull hits (but not with anything near the damage).
Ofc not the ridiculous stuff we have had before. That was too much, and also not an equalizer but a very disruptive element that discouraged flying.
I find it somehow sad to dump the great breakthrough of "missiles track finally" (one of the major cool things that were achieved in the last version) because their first draft was too good.
Also CMing was a skill (Firestalkers were just too good), and adding usefulness to CMs was cool. It put you at an advantage if you knew how to use them, when to do so, how to save them from being wasted, etc. That was cool. It should stay in, therefore we need tracking missiles that you have to fend off with CMs.
Don't get me wrong: the old-op missiles were overpowered and harming the game. But seeing the old-old missiles now, I realize how great a change the old-op missiles were (as they tracked and hit). The mistake is not the tracking mechanism that finally worked, but the stacking up of missile damage, too high damage in general.
While I like the Cannonball missile for being exciting (even though it has been nerfed to a too small proximity atm), and also find the Cataplt rewarding, tracking "equalizers" should be in for those who cannot hit hull (and those are MANY). Of course not as the "kill everything" damage nuke we had, but on a reasonable level.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Outro - 02-01-2015
(02-01-2015, 01:13 PM)Zayne Carrick Wrote: 2 weeks of intensive training with good pilot and you'll be able to hold on quite long against any ace and kill 80% of discovery VHF population without problemsBecause everyone has 2 weeks just for training in Conn. And good luck with finding an ace that will teach you the tricks.
One more thing: Hardware aspect. Playing on a laptop vs. playing on a rig are two completely different experiences. I'm not talking about connection problems, that's another debate. I'm talking about fps lagging (and jittering), especially in group fights. You can't turn off all the effects, otherwise your FL experience will be pretty sh*te. So yeah, good rig/laptop users are having PvP advantage over crappy laptop/PC users. And long time I thought this is just a myth. Until I saw some high-quality PvP videos on youtube.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Hidamari - 02-01-2015
All missiles should do 2 hull damage, 1 shield damage. all ammo removed from all stations in the game. then all renamed to "I refuse to l2p" in the menu screens.
conn training is dumb and most of the people that even remotely considered 'aces' dont do it often, the only thing you need to do is throw yourself into group fights over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
so what you need to do really is
1. join JM| and log into tau 23 (let the meta take its course) and wait for the 30000 angry IMG ships to log in, group fight.
2. join |Core and sit in delta, gamma or alpha for a spell and wait for the 500000 angry hispanics/order/AI ships to log in, group fight.
3. join GRN and sit in magellan - and wait for 1000000 IMG/BAF/CR/[HF] ships to log to come and pew you, group fight.
4. create a (insert hostile pirate group here) and sit on the new york lane in cali, please see above for player response.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - pillow - 02-01-2015
(02-01-2015, 01:34 PM)Mímir Wrote: Oh the irony reading this post from you, Protege. Who knows, if you hadn't been busy flying broken ships, suiciding, fleeing, and spamming torps and missiles throughout 4.87, you might have been a decent PVP'er by now. It really doesn't take that long, if you have fun shooting things and can deal with the fact that the most valuable lessons come from losing. And losing a lot.The level of roflcopter coming from that post made me cry from laughter.
Protégé, buddy.
Here's a little information for you.
If you can't hit a running target, it's your fault, because of what Mimir said.
Countermeasures are still useful. Remember CD's? They're still a thing. And Counties can be useful against them.
Last thing: You kicked yourself in the face with the first post. Why? Mimir said it all.
I love this thread.
Quote:Because everyone has 2 weeks just for training in Conn. And good luck with finding an ace that will teach you the tricks.Also that. Outro pls.
Guess what.
Go to conn, fight a few guys, and if you can scratch Haste you're good to go.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Omi - 02-01-2015
I wondered how long it would take for this thread to happen.
Protege, I hope you don't take it as being rude that you're one of my least favourite people to fight in all Disco. You do a very good job at coming across as reasonable on the forums, but I've rarely seen someone use so many 'dirty' tactics (shieldrunning, suiciding deliberately to deny blues, atmosphere hugging, borderline missilespam) while also both having so little actual ability and trash-talking so much. Again, you shouldn't consider that as me talking smack - it's a statement of fact. If you had any substance to back up all that big talk you keep giving out, maybe you'd be capable of doing hull damage with anything other than judicious nuke spam and repeated pressing of 'launch sidewinder'.
Outro, I have no idea what your little paragraph about hardware is meant for. Do you want us to ban all laptops or desktops from playing the game simply because they can run it better? Do you want everyone to be forced to play the game on the exact same specs? That's not how other games work, as I'm sure you know. Oh, and by the way - my performance tanks to horrific levels in large groupfights (or, sometimes, just at random) thanks to my AMD GPU, so I'm in the same boat here. Regardless, you're not going to balance anything around hardware issues.
Meanwhile, the same old tired argument gets trod out from five or six different people about PvP 'elitism', whatever that's meant to mean. Again, I don't mean to be rude, but while the same old faces make excuses about 'not having enough time' or 'not enough of a nolifer to dedicate 200000000000000 hours to Conn every week xdd', there are other people out there actually getting good, if you'll excuse the turn of phrase.
Seriously - I can name at least two people who have drastically and noticeably improved in terms of their aim. I won't, in case they'd prefer me not to, but one is now a very credible threat when you let him 2.00 you in the back, and the other hadn't even given snub PvP a serious go for years before he started throwing himself into Magellan fights.
It really isn't hard - and, plus, if you wise up and start doing it now, you might actually be decent by the time missiles return to being even marginally useful.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - tothebonezone - 02-01-2015
GROUP FIGHTS TAKE TOO LONG, WE NEED TO KILL EACH OTHER FASTER >: (
MISSILES KILL PEOPLE TOO FAST, RUINING GROUP FIGHTS >: (
GROUP FIGHTS TAKE TO LONG, WE NEED TO KILL EACH OTHER FASTER >: (
Repeat this cycle infinitely, and you have Discovery's missile and pvp balance forever predicted.
RE: My opinions on the pvp balance changes and 4.88 changes in general. - Omi - 02-01-2015
Well, we're still hoping Haste can find a balance between 'fights take three hours' and 'fights take three seconds'.
You missed the initial Cannonball stats, Saro, but they were pretty ON POINT when we did preliminary Conn testing.
And by ON POINT I meant every groupfight consisted of 11 Cannonballs all detonating at once and blowing everyone up.