+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery General (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+--- Thread: The new-Harvester Lore (/showthread.php?tid=131315)
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Sabru - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 08:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: For the sake of constructive feedback, start off with renaming the NPC faction as "Synthetics" or "Mechanicals" or "Automations", so that it covers everything from AI to VI to simple unintelligent artificial entities and is more open to people looking to play such characters.
Protip two, nomad factions and groups are not popular due to the struggle of RP communication between the nomad and whoever they are interacting with. In other words, drop the pretentious bullshait [->>AI ROLEPLAY<<-]
First, i gotta +1 this and Spazzy's other comments regarding building a broad NPC faction and then reconstructing the AI player faction within it as one of the aspects.
(07-06-2015, 09:58 AM)Antagonist Wrote:(07-06-2015, 09:41 AM)sindroms Wrote: The main problem is that you are making an NPC faction around a group.
I would suggest you make an NPC faction which can be done in multiple ways like I already suggested- pooling all of the possible non-human tech-related creations under one flag first and THEN create your own faction within it.
Do the AI thing, but give other players a chance to create their own RP using the NPC Faction's ID.
Know what I mean?
That is exactly what I have done. There are significant points mentioned in our story that allow indies to be "free" in their RP and definition. The only thing that is predefined is their real origin.
Let me just point out the problems with that statement, helpfully bolded. Your view seems to very much be an 'i, my, me' thing where you think you rule over the whole lore. Not a good viewpoint to have.
I think, at the very least, the Devs should have full oversight over AI Synthetic lore and should, if dev time allows and if absolutely necessary, redo the 'AI' NPC faction as a broader 'Synthetics' faction or similar as per Spazzy's suggestion.
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - sindroms - 07-06-2015
Making the initial NPC faction should be nothing complex.
All you need to make is the IFF and the short description that is placed in the rep sheet.
In other words, create a "Generic" faction, which has a very broad description from which players can then create whatever RP and groups they want to. Then we will have the Miner ID, FL ID
"Synthetics"
"The Synthetics is a term used to describe individual or groups of non-living sentient or non-sentient beings operating within the Sirius sector."
^That is all the NPC faction and rep needs. Everything else is up to the group or individual to RP out as they need.
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Antagonist - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 10:30 AM)Sabru Wrote:(07-06-2015, 08:45 AM)sindroms Wrote: For the sake of constructive feedback, start off with renaming the NPC faction as "Synthetics" or "Mechanicals" or "Automations", so that it covers everything from AI to VI to simple unintelligent artificial entities and is more open to people looking to play such characters.
Protip two, nomad factions and groups are not popular due to the struggle of RP communication between the nomad and whoever they are interacting with. In other words, drop the pretentious bullshait [->>AI ROLEPLAY<<-]
First, i gotta +1 this and Spazzy's other comments regarding building a broad NPC faction and then reconstructing the AI player faction within it as one of the aspects.
(07-06-2015, 09:58 AM)Antagonist Wrote:(07-06-2015, 09:41 AM)sindroms Wrote: The main problem is that you are making an NPC faction around a group.
I would suggest you make an NPC faction which can be done in multiple ways like I already suggested- pooling all of the possible non-human tech-related creations under one flag first and THEN create your own faction within it.
Do the AI thing, but give other players a chance to create their own RP using the NPC Faction's ID.
Know what I mean?
That is exactly what I have done. There are significant points mentioned in our story that allow indies to be "free" in their RP and definition. The only thing that is predefined is their real origin.
Let me just point out the problems with that statement, helpfully bolded. Your view seems to very much be an 'i, my, me' thing where you think you rule over the whole lore. Not a good viewpoint to have.
I think, at the very least, the Devs should have full oversight over AI Synthetic lore and should, if dev time allows and if absolutely necessary, redo the 'AI' NPC faction as a broader 'Synthetics' faction or similar as per Spazzy's suggestion.
The "I" just refers to the idea. It isn't even possible to rule the story as everything has to be decided of a couple people afterall. To clear this out, the current story has been written from both Canaan leaders too.
I also agree the Devs should have full oversight over the lore.
"Machines" might also work as an IFF name or what about "Kappaians", "Gammuians", "Gammusians" or something like "Technos".
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Echo 7-7 - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 09:41 AM)sindroms Wrote: The main problem is that you are making an NPC faction around a group.
I would suggest you make an NPC faction which can be done in multiple ways like I already suggested- pooling all of the possible non-human tech-related creations under one flag first and THEN create your own faction within it.
Do the AI thing, but give other players a chance to create their own RP using the NPC Faction's ID.
Know what I mean?
There's an inherent problem with trying to make the AI ID a catch-all for every synthetic entity; generic IDs don't get ZoIs or their own shipline. The current AI NPC faction (and associated assets) specifically represent Gammusian AIs. The current AI tech is of distinctly Gammusian origin, so it wouldn't make any sense for non-Gammusians or different extra-Sirians to be running around in them. Along with the removal of "excess" generic IDs (old Mercenary, Trader etc), it was decided that faction-aligned AIs could be sufficiently represented by the regular faction ID, since rules-wise they would be behaving identically. This only leaves unaligned non-Gammusian synthetic entities, which could perhaps be managed with the Freelancer and/or Researcher IDs. However, if they're extra-Sirian synthetics, it is perhaps a situation so unique as to warrant being SRP material.
With all those options present, do we really need an ID that caters to "free" AIs co-habitating on Gammu?
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Oldum - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 11:14 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: There's an inherent problem with trying to make the AI ID a catch-all for every synthetic entity; generic IDs don't get ZoIs or their own shipline. The current AI NPC faction (and associated assets) specifically represent Gammusian AIs. The current AI tech is of distinctly Gammusian origin, so it wouldn't make any sense for non-Gammusians or different extra-Sirians to be running around in them. Along with the removal of "excess" generic IDs (old Mercenary, Trader etc), it was decided that faction-aligned AIs could be sufficiently represented by the regular faction ID, since rules-wise they would be behaving identically. This only leaves unaligned non-Gammusian synthetic entities, which could perhaps be managed with the Freelancer and/or Researcher IDs. However, if they're extra-Sirian synthetics, it is perhaps a situation so unique as to warrant being SRP material.
With all those options present, do we really need an ID that caters to "free" AIs co-habitating on Gammu?
And the fact that AI is restricted to the Gammusian origin, it basicaaly kills every other possibility of an AI based RP.
The thing is, if you try to RP an AI with a freelancer ID ( I didn't know researcher ID is back in the game ) then unless you make a thread about it, I doubt people would know from the get-go ... however, if you have some sort of generic AI related ID, that could fly with any IFF , thus opening up RP possibilities. Also, I know it's a lovely money sink to make people fill in SRP requests, and then they are enforced to provide materrials to keep that SRP alive, but that is only for those who have the time to do tons of forum RP , cause in game activity doesn't count ... So for example I , who doesn't have that much time, but would like to play with something that is connected to an SRP request, I don't even bother to start, cause I would probably not have enough time to build enough forum RP for the admin team to be satisfied with ...
Just an example of how a generic ID could be used :
AI ID , BMM IFF + Mining fighter = RP of automated miming vessels, BMM could be cooperating with Agiera for testing, etc.
Or actually I had an idea I wanted to make with a sirian built "synthetic" , but since my idea was way off from anything the AI ID would permit, I gave up on it.
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Echo 7-7 - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 11:36 AM)Oldum Wrote: ...
Just an example of how a generic ID could be used :
AI ID , BMM IFF + Mining fighter = RP of automated miming vessels, BMM could be cooperating with Agiera for testing, etc.
...
Theoretically, you could perform that exact roleplay with a regular BMM ID/IFF. If you need to convey to other players that your character is non-human, but you are unable to do so without resorting to an ID that says it explicitly, then either the player's roleplaying skills are insufficient to express more complicated characters, or there is a general misunderstanding of the function/purpose of an ID. In this example, the character is not an AI flying under the BMM flag; it is a "member" of BMM that happens to be an AI. If one then suggests that even with sufficient roleplaying skills, and even with a proper understanding of IDs, that the tools on hand are insufficient, then the next suggestion would be to write an appropriate in-character description for the vessel/character using the /setinfo command group. The logical conclusion here, since very few players actually use or bother to check /showinfo, is that the game is inherently weak in accomodating more unique characters; this brings us back to either suggesting the SRP route, or that game mechanics need to be expanded to better accomodate roleplaying nuances.
TL;DR: What you think you need is an ID. What you actually need is a way to oorply signal to other players that your character is an AI so that they can respond appropriately. While this could be achieved through the current ID mechanic, that's not what they're intended to be used for. IDs could have been the answer here if they were still entirely oorp items, but currently they do exist inRP as identifiers of your ship's registration/allegiance. (Technically, the SpecOps ID is the only ID which exists entirely ooRP; it is a holdover from the previous implementation.)
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Oldum - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 12:15 PM)Echo 7-7 Wrote: Theoretically, you could perform that exact roleplay with a regular BMM ID/IFF. If you need to convey to other players that your character is non-human, but you are unable to do so without resorting to an ID that says it explicitly, then either the player's roleplaying skills are insufficient to express more complicated characters, or there is a general misunderstanding of the function/purpose of an ID. In this example, the character is not an AI flying under the BMM flag; it is a "member" of BMM that happens to be an AI. If one then suggests that even with sufficient roleplaying skills, and even with a proper understanding of IDs, that the tools on hand are insufficient, then the next suggestion would be to write an appropriate in-character description for the vessel/character using the /setinfo command group. The logical conclusion here, since very few players actually use or bother to check /showinfo, is that the game is inherently weak in accomodating more unique characters; this brings us back to either suggesting the SRP route, or that game mechanics need to be expanded to better accomodate roleplaying nuances.
TL;DR: What you think you need is an ID. What you actually need is a way to oorply signal to other players that your character is an AI so that they can respond appropriately. While this could be achieved through the current ID mechanic, that's not what they're intended to be used for. IDs could have been the answer here if they were still entirely oorp items, but currently they do exist inRP as identifiers of your ship's registration/allegiance. (Technically, the SpecOps ID is the only ID which exists entirely ooRP; it is a holdover from the previous implementation.)
The example might not have been the best, however, as you said yourself, there is little to help players to make it clear that they are playing an AI ... and TBH , it can turn into a pain to having to explane every single time that my ship is not actually a person. And with al due respect, I'm pretty confident in my RP skills, I could do that, but I think it would take way too much time away from the actual RP encounter. But that might only be my opinion.
Also, /showinfo ... yeah right, I tried to set it for one of my chars once, but then I got a DC in the middle, and I had to start over again, then I docked from a station to avoid AFK kick, then I kept running into RP encounters, which I didn't want to just evade by pretending to be AFK, so at the end, I just rage-quit and left it all to be ...
Also, even if I'd wanna play the current AI ID , I'm basically restricted to 2 ships, a fighter and a cruiser , cause I get technerfed with everything else, even if in RP I could make sense into having an AI ID Osprey ... which I have no intetnion to play as a Zoner, but as an AI ... I hope you see where I'm trying to get.
Edit: And thank you for assuming that I'm with the idea just for the sake of not having proper RP skills for it. Much appreciated.
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Echo 7-7 - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 12:35 PM)Oldum Wrote: ... even if in RP I could make sense into having an AI ID Osprey ... which I have no intetnion to play as a Zoner, but as an AI ... I hope you see where I'm trying to get.
I do, actually. I used to have an AI ID Zoner GB (which I acquired inRP from the Omicroners for a non-Gammusian AI). I deleted the ship because it was no longer viable under the new AI ID, which I was disappointed about. However, a suitable replacement for that specific branch of AI RP has yet to be implemented, mostly because it is regarded as a very niche interest. Furthermore, there is no desire to introduce more non-human races to Sirius than those that already exist - Gammusian AIs are already a poorly-explained faction, grandfathered into modern Disco from their original status as easter-egg content.
(07-06-2015, 12:35 PM)Oldum Wrote: Edit: And thank you for assuming that I'm with the idea just for the sake of not having proper RP skills for it. Much appreciated.
It was a thought experiment, not an insult.
My point is that I agree that there's currently no good/easy way to RP as a non-Gammusian AI. However, I have yet to see a good solution/alternative being proposed outside of trying to manipulate the current AI NPC ID. Perhaps a separate / entirely new ID might be enough here, but being a generic ID, it would not have most of the Gammusian ID's advantages (or disadvantages). However, this assumes that we want to set a precedent for formally allowing generic non-human characters into Sirius - which may or may not be a good idea.
RE: The new-Harvester Lore - Oldum - 07-06-2015
(07-06-2015, 01:48 PM)Echo 7-7 Wrote:(07-06-2015, 12:35 PM)Oldum Wrote: ... even if in RP I could make sense into having an AI ID Osprey ... which I have no intetnion to play as a Zoner, but as an AI ... I hope you see where I'm trying to get.
I do, actually. I used to have an AI ID Zoner GB (which I acquired inRP from the Omicroners for a non-Gammusian AI). I deleted the ship because it was no longer viable under the new AI ID, which I was disappointed about. However, a suitable replacement for that specific branch of AI RP has yet to be implemented, mostly because it is regarded as a very niche interest.
(07-06-2015, 12:35 PM)Oldum Wrote: Edit: And thank you for assuming that I'm with the idea just for the sake of not having proper RP skills for it. Much appreciated.
It was a thought experiment, not an insult.
My point is that I agree that there's currently no good/easy way to RP as a non-Gammusian AI. However, I have yet to see a good solution/alternative being proposed outside of trying to manipulate the current AI NPC ID. Perhaps a separate / entirely new ID might be enough here, but being a generic ID, it would not have most of the Gammusian ID's advantages (or disadvantages).
Then you see where I'd like to get. And I think there would be quite a few people who would be interested in that, including me, and it would also give something for already exsisting engineering factions such as Agiera something to do apart from trading and reporting that Hudson is gonne sink into a huge wormhole.
Also, it would give me a chance to do a story that I only not started yet, cause I ran into RP limitations.
On the advantages-dissadvantages part : What's the advantage of the current AI ID ? You can pew pew in systems with no jumpgate ? I don't think it would be that much missed.
Actually, taking the current AI ID in reference, it could be something like that :
![[+]](/forums/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
Name other then AI IDRE: The new-Harvester Lore - Hannibal - 07-06-2015
Why all i see in this thread is about the ID?that's the least important thing to focus on
We should rather discuss an IFF which can be used on all IDs much like the Independed pirate IFF so we can avoid the need to explain over and over that our character is not human(sometimes you don't even get the chance to do so)