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+--- Thread: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback (/showthread.php?tid=100894)
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Zen_Mechanics - 06-26-2013
(06-26-2013, 02:21 PM)Omicron Wrote: Ok, so let's say all Zoners are united and vote.
Each major faction may result in being pissed off as vote does not go according to the principles they are following, group breaks. All over.
Hey there bud, well its not a "go in and get out whenever you feel like" - The group should have something to offer in order for them to join, and something to lose if they choose to leave. Obviously upon "registration" they should accept the "rules" that are set.. such as " if a decision is made, and the majority won, its to be respected ".
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Dourden4 - 06-26-2013
OK, so im going to reply in two stances, One as a Player, and the Other as the Current Ceo of OSI.
First, as a player I find the idea intriguing, but ultimately flawed. By your own decription,
Tel Aviv Wrote:those who do not sign it are not expected to follow usSo I ask you, What is the point? If the whole idea is to have an overarching structure that would handle diplomacy and the like for the entire Zoner faction, what good will it do if compliance is totally voluntary? If memory serves, the last incarnation of the 'Zoner Council' was designed with this exact precept, and yet still failed spectacularly. As I see it, we can have the freedom loving people that are the current Zoners, or Zoners that have a single council, but not both. With voluntary compliance, whats to stop a group (like ZA for lack of a better example) from just saying "Nope not with you and not following your rules" and going and doing their own thing anyway? What would be different then? How would this council handle Indies? How would they be included, or would they be excluded?
As the CEO of OSI, I can say that it is unlikely at best that OSI would join any such group. Twice in the past we have happily signed on to these councils, and twice they have disintegrated around us and nearly caused significant harm to the faction. Without a significantly different and substantial reason, I see it very unlikely that OSI would participate. The primary reason for this (as well as the large disparity between Zoner factions) is the widely varying goals and views. OSI has little in common with Phoenix, or Taz. A prime example (correct me if i am wrong, might be out of date) is that TAZ is full hostile with Gallic entities, where OSI is not. How would this council propose to settle those differences?
The idea is interesting, and pulled off correctly could be a great thing. I just dont see much chance of it taking off. Though I am not without an open mind, Hit me up in PM or skype @Dourden41, we can discuss it.
Hasteric Wrote:However, OSI might want to keep moving those shiny artifacts the Corsairs seem to dig up everywhere. Maybe they want to keep delivering food. They don't want to suffer diplomatic losses because of the Phoenix.
This is spot on, considering we had almost this exact situation with the pheonix predecesors the Omicroners. But i digress.
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Thyrzul - 06-26-2013
(06-26-2013, 02:19 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: Its a possibility, but as I said it will be democratic in nature
Aaaaaand as in any democratic system, here it will be voted that OSI will lose one of their business partners rather than Phoenix getting an enemy next door, because OSI's loss would be the lesser loss. Even if OSI is barely threatened by Order...
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Omicron - 06-26-2013
Let me explain how (in my experience) different Zoners view the world:
Phoenix: Keep out of politics if it does harm them, they would deny on the start. They are on the very edge of civilization for a reason.
OSI: business people who most likely do not want other Zoners to screw over their lucrative deals... also as recent events showed, all Zoners would feel wrath of Rheinland and some other factions perhaps.
TAZ: Religious nuts (no offense). They will do anything that their (rather chaotic) religion will dictate them. They are also prepared for consequences of their actions unlike others who might suffer through unity.
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Zen_Mechanics - 06-26-2013
(06-26-2013, 02:25 PM)Hasteric Wrote: Thing is, unity would weaken the Zoners.
The OSI managed to tick off the Rheinlanders somehow (please, don't derail this thread by arguing how it went improperly or something, that's irrelevant). They're not welcome there anymore.
This does not mean however that the TAZ also have to explain themselves to Rheinland. Or the Phoenix. Or the Commonwealth. That's because they're not the same group at all.
Yet if they were officially united under some abstract "Zoner" banner, they would all suffer the consequences of one group's actions.
Well, thats also a good point but then again I mentioned "united-nations" - the brits don't like to take the piss, so whatever they do is up to them to decide, but they don't do stuff that will damage others, like ZA did, thats the exact thing that were gonna try and stop.
If taz hates gauls, and others like it, they can choose to do what they want without the orginizations responsibilites, because they are legal&sovereign groups.
Re-edit : That's the first thing that they should obviously accept upon "registration" - not to do something that will damage the others in general, if its a local thing and it stays there.. by all means.
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - kikatsu - 06-26-2013
Well it was tried before and it failed before. It would work best if you only voted with the Freeport commanders rather than the factions operating out of them I think.
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Zen_Mechanics - 06-26-2013
(06-26-2013, 02:31 PM)kikatsu Wrote: Well it was tried before and it failed before. It would work best if you only voted with the Freeport commanders rather than the factions operating out of them I think.
I will look into that and gonna talk to richard and see what he thinks, he would be the best source to ask such questions
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Rodnas - 06-26-2013
What happened to the Confederation of Southern Freeports?? That was the bureocratic tool you are looking for - i doubt a big Zoner collective would do them any good- because if there is one overstructure for all Zoners in Sirius the already hard to keep Zoner neutrality goes down the drain.
Example: Zoners in the Taus might not give a thing about Corsairs, they could even quake about Sairs being Cardamine loving hippies dressed in Blood Diamond glitter like the sissies they are - why? Because there are no Sairs in the Taus and no one will care. Try the same in Omicron Theta and you can built a line of lolgates from Crete to Freeport 9. Zoners are neutral because each small unit of Zoners is neutral to its individual surroundings.
Pull them all under one hat and you get that line of lolgates with a frustrated Theta Zoner that can't stop the Tau Zoner from making what-to-feed-the-hungry-sair gameshows and still gets blamed as they all belong to the same overstructure.
As someone who has first hand experiance in democratic leadership for factions i have to admit that this system has severe downsides, even if it is much fairer and "indy-inclusive" than a one man per faction dictatorship (at least in my opinion)- you will get the blame for everything, especially if it is neither your fault nor within your bounds to control....but well, maybe the Zoners can optimize the procedure
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Omicron - 06-26-2013
N00blet & Doc are best sources of information concerning The First Yalalala and both Zoner unity faction concepts. While I was not to witness how first one failed, I have seen and participated in fall of the second one.
There was nothing to could be done to save this concept at that time. Now, all factions are even more diverse than they used to be.
RE: United Zoners [ Still In process ] - Feedback - Zen_Mechanics - 06-26-2013
(06-26-2013, 02:33 PM)Rodnas Wrote: What happened to the Confederation of Southern Freeports?? That was the bureocratic tool you are looking for - i doubt a big Zoner collective would do them any good- because if there is one overstructure for all Zoners in Sirius the already hard to keep Zoner neutrality goes down the drain.
Example: Zoners in the Taus might not give a thing about Corsairs, they could even quake about Sairs being Cardamine loving hippies dressed in Blood Diamond glitter like the sissies they are - why? Because there are no Sairs in the Taus and no one will care. Try the same in Omicron Theta and you can built a line of lolgates from Crete to Freeport 9. Zoners are neutral because each small unit of Zoners is neutral to its individual surroundings.
Pull them all under one hat and you get that line of lolgates with a frustrated Theta Zoner that can't stop the Tau Zoner from making what-to-feed-the-hungry-sair gameshows and still gets blamed as they all belong to the same overstructure.
As someone who has first hand experiance in democratic leadership for factions i have to admit that this system has severe downsides, even if it is much fairer and "indy-inclusive" than a one man per faction dictatorship (at least in my opinion)- you will get the blame for everything, especially if it is neither your fault nor within your bounds to control....but well, maybe the Zoners can optimize the procedure
Correct and I agree, but I had these questions in mind and realize that Its an idea worth trying, religion used to be science back in the days, Im just trying to optimize our "faults" - which is why I want open-minded lads working together and pinpoint the stuff that really matter and resolve this.
I know many people will discard it because its easy to just not do anything when its hard to acomplish something because it takes time and effort, and most folks I know like challenges
Re-edit : Questions are the beginings, and if i get the support that i need, ill even go down to the little stuff, and think about solutions for such scenarios ( obviously when I say "me" I mean the lads who want this challenge.