Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC?

Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Printable Version

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RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Sombs - 05-30-2018

6 is my favourite.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - aerelm - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 07:17 PM)Chills Wrote: nop middle part really doesn't matter for balance. It's about engine and front size.

Funnily enough, the way hit detection in FL engine works is pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

[2:26:24 PM] aerelm: basically, this is how hitreg in FL works:
[2:26:50 PM] aerelm: the crosshair is aligned to wherever the model is centered to
[2:27:24 PM] aerelm: and then each shot getting close to that center point, is aligned to wherever the nearest surface (on the hitbox) is
[2:28:05 PM] aerelm: so, "center-heavy" ships (those that aren't either flat from one profile, or don't have any negative space near the center) end up bein bullet magnets
[2:29:28 PM] aerelm: getting hit even by shots that were supposed to be a near miss
[2:31:11 PM] aerelm: and ships that have mostly negative space in the middle end up with pretty much the same issue, just the opposite end of the spectrum
[2:31:49 PM] aerelm: won't be hit even with properly aimed shots
[2:32:16 PM] aerelm: and trying to fix those by recentering the model on the nose/tail breaks their handling and docking
[2:39:13 PM] aerelm: If you imagine the positive space of a model as black and negative space as white
[2:39:18 PM] aerelm: and draw a red circle ~50% of the model's size in the center
[2:39:41 PM] aerelm: too much of one color in the center red circle (where hit register tracks to) will cause that issue I mentioned
[2:40:34 PM] aerelm: though, as long as it has a balanced distribution of white and black in all profiles, it'll work decent enough ingame
[2:40:45 PM] aerelm: Manta, for example, will be all black in that circle from side but wont have that much black in it from front
[2:41:06 PM] aerelm: or eagle will be mostly black from top, but mostly white from front
[2:41:31 PM] aerelm: so it balances itself out
[2:41:41 PM] aerelm: sabre, on the other hand, will be mostly white both from side and front
[2:41:57 PM] aerelm: which is why its hitbox is broken, and can't possibly be fixed without the source code

So yea... as a couple of people already pointed out, model #2 (despite being a nice model) simply won't work in FL engine, due to having mostly negative space in its center.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Exe - 05-30-2018

2 is the only good option. Rest is trash, since Bretonia needs some good capital ships to encounter Gallias Bcs and Cruisers more efficient. Also a BC should be small in front and in its back, so that it can strafe to sneak trough enemy cruiser's mortars etc. The other models are way to fat, that would destroy a Battlecruisers purpose like the Tirpitz already suffered. Please take 2.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Durandal - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 07:50 PM)aerelm Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 07:17 PM)Chills Wrote: nop middle part really doesn't matter for balance. It's about engine and front size.

Funnily enough, the way hit detection in FL engine works is pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

[2:26:24 PM] aerelm: basically, this is how hitreg in FL works:
[2:26:50 PM] aerelm: the crosshair is aligned to wherever the model is centered to
[2:27:24 PM] aerelm: and then each shot getting close to that center point, is aligned to wherever the nearest surface (on the hitbox) is
[2:28:05 PM] aerelm: so, "center-heavy" ships (those that aren't either flat from one profile, or don't have any negative space near the center) end up bein bullet magnets
[2:29:28 PM] aerelm: getting hit even by shots that were supposed to be a near miss
[2:31:11 PM] aerelm: and ships that have mostly negative space in the middle end up with pretty much the same issue, just the opposite end of the spectrum
[2:31:49 PM] aerelm: won't be hit even with properly aimed shots
[2:32:16 PM] aerelm: and trying to fix those by recentering the model on the nose/tail breaks their handling and docking
[2:39:13 PM] aerelm: If you imagine the positive space of a model as black and negative space as white
[2:39:18 PM] aerelm: and draw a red circle ~50% of the model's size in the center
[2:39:41 PM] aerelm: too much of one color in the center red circle (where hit register tracks to) will cause that issue I mentioned
[2:40:34 PM] aerelm: though, as long as it has a balanced distribution of white and black in all profiles, it'll work decent enough ingame
[2:40:45 PM] aerelm: Manta, for example, will be all black in that circle from side but wont have that much black in it from front
[2:41:06 PM] aerelm: or eagle will be mostly black from top, but mostly white from front
[2:41:31 PM] aerelm: so it balances itself out
[2:41:41 PM] aerelm: sabre, on the other hand, will be mostly white both from side and front
[2:41:57 PM] aerelm: which is why its hitbox is broken, and can't possibly be fixed without the source code

So yea... as a couple of people already pointed out, model #2 (despite being a nice model) simply won't work in FL engine, due to having mostly negative space in its center.

You're actually wrong about this and it is perfectly possible to adjust a hitbox's center of mass, as I did recently to the Rabisu in the last balance patch. That said, it'd be impossible to put it literally anywhere on the second model without it being too thin or too far from the center.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Thyrzul - 05-30-2018

What would be the issue with centering Model #2 like if the bottom half of the front wouldn't exist? Besides that I reckon it could have some beefier belly, but I think the general shape is okay.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Piombo65 - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 07:29 PM)SMI-Great.Fox Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 07:22 PM)Piombo65 Wrote: No, seriously; from some years I told that the current (that new one) carrier model is ugly.

Certain ugliness has beauty to it. <3

Yes, and I'm the best PvPer...

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Chills - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 08:10 PM)Durandal Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 07:50 PM)aerelm Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 07:17 PM)Chills Wrote: nop middle part really doesn't matter for balance. It's about engine and front size.

Funnily enough, the way hit detection in FL engine works is pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

[2:26:24 PM] aerelm: basically, this is how hitreg in FL works:
[2:26:50 PM] aerelm: the crosshair is aligned to wherever the model is centered to
[2:27:24 PM] aerelm: and then each shot getting close to that center point, is aligned to wherever the nearest surface (on the hitbox) is
[2:28:05 PM] aerelm: so, "center-heavy" ships (those that aren't either flat from one profile, or don't have any negative space near the center) end up bein bullet magnets
[2:29:28 PM] aerelm: getting hit even by shots that were supposed to be a near miss
[2:31:11 PM] aerelm: and ships that have mostly negative space in the middle end up with pretty much the same issue, just the opposite end of the spectrum
[2:31:49 PM] aerelm: won't be hit even with properly aimed shots
[2:32:16 PM] aerelm: and trying to fix those by recentering the model on the nose/tail breaks their handling and docking
[2:39:13 PM] aerelm: If you imagine the positive space of a model as black and negative space as white
[2:39:18 PM] aerelm: and draw a red circle ~50% of the model's size in the center
[2:39:41 PM] aerelm: too much of one color in the center red circle (where hit register tracks to) will cause that issue I mentioned
[2:40:34 PM] aerelm: though, as long as it has a balanced distribution of white and black in all profiles, it'll work decent enough ingame
[2:40:45 PM] aerelm: Manta, for example, will be all black in that circle from side but wont have that much black in it from front
[2:41:06 PM] aerelm: or eagle will be mostly black from top, but mostly white from front
[2:41:31 PM] aerelm: so it balances itself out
[2:41:41 PM] aerelm: sabre, on the other hand, will be mostly white both from side and front
[2:41:57 PM] aerelm: which is why its hitbox is broken, and can't possibly be fixed without the source code

So yea... as a couple of people already pointed out, model #2 (despite being a nice model) simply won't work in FL engine, due to having mostly negative space in its center.

You're actually wrong about this and it is perfectly possible to adjust a hitbox's center of mass, as I did recently to the Rabisu in the last balance patch. That said, it'd be impossible to put it literally anywhere on the second model without it being too thin or too far from the center.

nope im not talking about that.

Am 30.05.2018 um 20:10 hat geschrieben:
> belly not very important, really. You can't hit tirpitz, probably fattest BC, from 1,5k and less when you are not blindfiring. guns have 2,5k range. If u cant hit BC at 1,5k or 500m really does not matter at all at this point. But you will hit with blindfire. Both models

Am 30.05.2018 um 20:10 hat geschrieben:
> If u make bret big enough its engines will be easier to hit than tirpitz

Am 30.05.2018 um 20:11 hat geschrieben:
> tirpitz with its small ass might even be more difficult to blindfire at this rate

Summarized: BSs cant hit ANY BC thats TSing without BFing. Big/small belly doesnt matter for this. It is easier to BF targets with big engines. It is easier to hit a target the bigger the front is if it follows you. It is easier to hit a target the bigger the engines are if you follow it.

Second model fullfills the needed "proportions" for a BC.
It's my opinion after years of capwhoring, other capplayers like titan and reddy agree.
And it looks good.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - aerelm - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 08:10 PM)Durandal Wrote: You're actually wrong about this and it is perfectly possible to adjust a hitbox's center of mass, as I did recently to the Rabisu in the last balance patch. That said, it'd be impossible to put it literally anywhere on the second model without it being too thin or too far from the center.

Oh, I see the confusion. By "model" in that skype log I was referring to the ship itself (i.e. the shape), not specifically the .cmp file. Of course realigning the targeting reticle will have to be done through its .sur. So for techy-accurate correction, just replace every "model" in that log with "hitbox" and it'll essentially be the same as what you said. Tongue

(05-30-2018, 08:25 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: What would be the issue with centering Model #2 like if the bottom half of the front wouldn't exist? Besides that I reckon it could have some beefier belly, but I think the general shape is okay.

Recentering the ship too close to one end throws off its handling (when turning, the opposite end will wobble around much faster than the ship's intended handling). The issue will only be prominent on larger (or longer) ships if it's aligned too close to one end. Snubs, or even smaller or more-compact caps can still mostly get away with it, but in case of this specific model, it's quite thin and long from 2 profiles, so having it centered around the nose - esp. at battlecruiser size - will result in situations like its engine going straight up to a 45° angle the moment it starts turning downwards.

Edit: Could work with a beefier belly.
[Image: gIWRb8r.png]

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Isha - 05-30-2018

I'll go for 2. It's beautiful. Maybe it would make some good use of a docking point - small launch pad or hangar to make it even better. Anyways, I love the look of it.

RE: Poll: Which One Is the Better Bretonian BC? - Thyrzul - 05-30-2018

(05-30-2018, 08:50 PM)aerelm Wrote: Recentering the ship too close to one end throws off its handling (when turning, the opposite end will wobble around much faster than the ship's intended handling). The issue will only be prominent on larger (or longer) ships if it's aligned too close to one end. Snubs, or even smaller or more-compact caps can still mostly get away with it, but in case of this specific model, it's quite thin and long from 2 profiles, so having it centered around the nose - esp. at battlecruiser size - will result in situations like its engine going straight up to a 45° angle the moment it starts turning downwards.

Edit: Could work with a beefier belly.

I did not propose to center it closer to the front, I said place it higher than the all inclusive geometry would suggest, like where it would normally be if the lower half of the front wouldn't be there. So that it's inside the model.

At most I can see only those frontal bottom wing-things wobbling that way, but they don't have any significant volume either, compared to the rest of the ship.