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+--- Thread: Corsair Order alliance (/showthread.php?tid=25109)
Corsair Order alliance - NonSequitor - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:You guys arent getting the big picture.
The Order is not 'heroic' in the sense that its lawful. Its also using unlawful methods. For example it blew up the Donau in the SP campain, also killing hundreds of innocent people that had nothing to do with it, and probably did other similar actions, as hinted in some SP news reports.
If all humanity were just a bunch of pirates, they would be fighting for those pirates. They wouldnt say 'nomads are better than us because we kill each other, so let them kill us'.
Order will take what ever help it will get. It wont say 'you are a filthy pirate, I dont want your help in saving humanity'. It doesnt care about upholding any law... unlawfuls are humans to them just like anybody... a part of human nature.
For an alliance especially with the corsairs, there are several good reasons:
-Corsaires fight the outcasts. The outcasts are in league with the noamds.
-The artifact smuggle is controled by the corsaires. Alien artifacts are vital in understanding the Daam K'vosh (or how you spell it) and in beating the nomads. Like in SP.
-Probably nomads are against artifact smuggle in general and thus also in confrontation to the Corsaires, they certainly got screwed of by an artifact in the SP.
Your arguments are oversimplified. Ok, the Order are not saints, that's a given. But even they understand the peril of depending too much on the old "the ends justify the means" approach. There's the danger that you'll eventually become the monster that you're fighting. Now to address your points.
First of all, I would state that the Order really doesn't need help specifically from the Corsairs. You would think the Corsairs have enough buns in the oven what with fighting the OC, Hessians and BH. The Order can effectively defend itself from the BH and still fight the Nomads, if the weekly BH-Order event is any indication.
Secondly, the Corsairs do not have the know-how or the desire to closely inspect the Nomad artifacts that they are distributing into House Space. Sure, most of them are inert chunks of crystal, but it only takes one active one to start some serious chaos. Corsairs and those friendly to them buy them or mine them and ship those things off to the next dealer (Luxury Liner Hawaii). Now, if they decided to transport them to Minor for inspection and analysis before distribution, I could understand the Order's current policy with the Corsairs. That's not going to happen though.
Corsair Order alliance - globalplayer-svk - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:Aha. Ahahahaha. Please excuse me while I go outside and clutch my aching sides.
The Corsairs have the numbers and approximate amount of individual skill of Imperial Guardsmen without any of their coordination, cynicism, or Warhammer 40K appeal.
thats why corsairs survived in past all the AW+OC+HF+Dragons attacks?...
Corsair Order alliance - Zeltak - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:The corsairs gain:
1: The survival of teir species in a war with an alien race
2: Less bounty hunters on their asses. Bounty hunters hunt Corsaires too
In Role-Play I have not seen any information regarding the Corsairs perceiving the Nomads as a serious threat. Could be wrong on that one.
Yes less Bounty hunters but again, common enemy does not constitute an official alliances. An official alliance can produce diplomatic consequences which the Order has already received, they can be engaged by the Outcasts because they are openly allying themselves with the Corsairs.
' Wrote:Waste of resources? They would probably lose more doing the above 2 things on their own.
Order isnt in full scale war with Outcasts. Dont think anybody asks for that. But you wont see an alliance with Outcasts because of their views with the nomads. I think outcasts are allowed to ally themselves with nomads in pvp fights.
Outcast aren't "allying" themselves with the Nomads but merely targeting a common enemy. Again, see reference Corsairs and the Order attacking Bounty Hunters. Could work the same way.
The Corsairs are a selfish group of pirates who only think off themselves this is not a biased view but a Role-Play one. They are pirates, says it all really?
' Wrote:Disco is based on vanilla. Its not a BSG or Startrek mod, its based in the Freelancer universe, very closely.
Yep its based off Vanilla, still does NOT justify the stuff that happened in the time/era of vanilla Freelancer to still be marked as valid, now as in the time of version 4.85. Also, when did I even begin talking about BSG and Startrek?
' Wrote:I still think all my arguments are valid. If you find them invalid please show me where Im wrong.
I have already countered your arguments with my own, that is my answer to your statement.
Now to answer your question:
' Wrote:What would either side gain when beraking the allaince?
NOthing,...
Thats why its in place and makes sense.
Well, the Order gain nothing. The Corsairs saves resources and pilots. Already said that. An alliance is only efficient if both parties gain a benefit. An alliance is NOT efficient if only one said gain benefit, or only one said gain the major benefit (this is the case of this alliance, Corsair gets some benefits, but nothing worth throwing away their resources for.)
' Wrote:If you say one argument is rp and one is oorp... I dont actually agree. If you say he is lobbying for it out of own reasons, I would suggest you are probable doing the same.
I have every right to assume some arguments are Role-Play oriented and some are not, makes sense if treated case-by-case. Of course I'm lobbying, that is the point of arguing. Everyone in Discovery is biased don't even begin there...
' Wrote:And their is an oorp argument that should count:
Server ballance. Corsaires dont have as many allies as Outcasts, and fewer people play as corsairs. The Corsaires would totally get their asses kicked all the time if they werent allied to Order. There would be no fun in that.
This one I agree with you, the Corsairs are having trouble with alliances and their main enemy, the Outcast have too many. Hopefully this can be fixed but I don't believe it is with the current alliance set-up for them.
Corsair Order alliance - Lutz - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:Sounds to me that you are just a little bit scared to loose your only ally against the Bounty Hunters.Well for that. Im playing a lot with my Order char and never saw a good help from sairs against the BHg problems in Minor. When BHG BS's and bombers come we mostly kill them with order forces. So no need for us to call the sairs.
IF you dont want that alliance then break it. I dont mind since I only meet 1 or 2 sairs in delta sometimes or when I pass kappa. If the corsairs go hostile with the order thats another matter. I dont want more BS's camping Minor every day and kill every fighter who is undocking from the planets surface.
Corsair Order alliance - Guest - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:We have too many common enemies: Nomads, Outcasts, BHG, Houses...
And there were a lot of cases when Order sent pilots to help Gamma against OCs... I participated in some and I've been in Order for just a few weeks
Ahem.
The Outcasts aren't enemies of the Order.
Corsair Order alliance - Canaris - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:Your arguments are oversimplified. Ok, the Order are not saints, that's a given. But even they understand the peril of depending too much on the old "the ends justify the means" approach. There's the danger that you'll eventually become the monster that you're fighting.
Now thats where I totally disagree with a lot of people, also with some people in the Order.
Order doesnt give a rats ass about being 'good' or 'bad'. Those are terms defined by human morals. Humanity is under real threat of being destroyed, totally. And ?t has already been destroyed by the nomads in its origin systems. I think the game hints that the coalition/alliance war was also caused by nomads, for the same reason they caused the rhineland war. Once one side won, they appeared and destroyed humanity, because as a single united force they would sooner or later be a threat to them.
The order thinks its losing the war against the nomads, or at least it should think so because there are very strong indications for it. There can be no surrender, so weakening yourself by following human morals or laws, which will be gone anyway if you lose the war, doesnt make sense.
The other things... same enemies, order at war with liberty... have already been said by other people.
' Wrote:First of all, I would state that the Order really doesn't need help specifically from the Corsairs. You would think the Corsairs have enough buns in the oven what with fighting the OC, Hessians and BH. The Order can effectively defend itself from the BH and still fight the Nomads, if the weekly BH-Order event is any indication.
In a server ballance, you are correct. There are far too many Order ships and players. They dont need corsaire help. Corsaires, however, need the alliance. In a rp sense, both need the alliance.
' Wrote:Secondly, the Corsairs do not have the know-how or the desire to closely inspect the Nomad artifacts that they are distributing into House Space. Sure, most of them are inert chunks of crystal, but it only takes one active one to start some serious chaos. Corsairs and those friendly to them buy them or mine them and ship those things off to the next dealer (Luxury Liner Hawaii). Now, if they decided to transport them to Minor for inspection and analysis before distribution, I could understand the Order's current policy with the Corsairs. That's not going to happen though.True. But the Order needs the artifacts, regardless of how much Corsaires care for their 'scientific' value.
Corsair Order alliance - Zeltak - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:Ahem.
The Outcasts aren't enemies of the Order.
This is one of the consequences an in-game diplomacy sheet can give.
Quote:The Order.
Allied to: Corsairs ....
So people who are not deeply into the Order role-play will automatically assume they are hostile to the Outcasts since they are allied to the Corsairs. Makes sense.
Corsair Order alliance - Eppy - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:This one I agree with you, the Corsairs are having trouble with alliances and their main enemy, the Outcast have too many. Hopefully this can be fixed but I don't believe it is with the current alliance set-up for them.
Sina, which mod version are you playing? O.O
We've lost the Mollies, the Dragons, the Hessians and the Bundschuh, and our one attempt at diplomacy, trying to go neutral to the CR, got stepped on by, guess who, the Corsairs. There IS no Outcast Alliance anymore.
Corsair Order alliance - Guest - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:This is one of the consequences an in-game diplomacy sheet can give.
So people who are not deeply into the Order role-play will automatically assume they are hostile to the Outcasts since they are allied to the Corsairs. Makes sense.
We can hope that some people will see that your allies, enemy isn't always yours.
Last I remember hearing, no Order| are meant to attack Outcasts and to be honest, the only reason the Order should ever attack a Outcast is if either the Outcasts are helping the Nomads or making a direct attack against the Corsairs in the Order's presence.
Corsair Order alliance - Zeltak - 08-18-2009
' Wrote:Sina, which mod version are you playing? O.O
We've lost the Mollies, the Dragons, the Hessians and the Bundschuh, and our one attempt at diplomacy, trying to go neutral to the CR, got stepped on by, guess who, the Corsairs. There IS no Outcast Alliance anymore.
You are right about that Eppy, yet I still feel the Corsairs get raided daily too much by various enemies.