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Sirius under an economic crysis? - Printable Version

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Sirius under an economic crysis? - Denelo - 09-06-2009

Have to agree with this. Way too hard to get anything done at the moment. As a corp trader, I find that running in-RP routes earns me next to nothing compared to running normal routes - or worse, ooRP ones - on any other trader. Where I earn 10 million an hour running in-RP routes on my Shire, I'll earn two or three times that on my smuggler. Plus, actually trading using the lanes is dangerous - there are several systems where you'll be pirated for twice what you're earning just by sticking your nose through the door.

Now, the real problem here is that people consider trading to be work. And in fact, it is. The only way to survive on this server is to trade, sell weapons (involves farming), mod a ridiculous number of systems, or, in some very few cases, pirate. While mining should be another way to earn money, it's not. It's simply not viable. But that's a point for another thread.

As it stands, though, trading is the most easily accessible way to earn money at a reasonable rate. Therefore, I am forced to trade to keep my characters alive, while I would much rather be doing something constructive. I honestly think I'd probably slow down and RP my trader characters even more than I do now if I wasn't sitting there knowing I was losing money and would have to work much harder and longer because I was RPing. In short, I'm punished for stopping and RPing with someone. What this does is it actually encourages powertrading and discourages RP; after all, if I RP, I won't have enough money to buy X ship by Y date so I can RP with it with Z.

Give people a reason to actual RP traders, please. I rarely see traders stopping in a system and RPing longer than they'd be in the system anyways except occasionally Bowex and AIL (shameless faction plug there). Traders aren't encouraged to go through high-traffic areas, where they'd lead to the most encounters; they lose money doing so. I personally avoid New York like the plague simply because half the pirates of Sirius are there at any given moment, and flying to Fort Bush with a Shire full of Gold is sure to get me pirated for 10 or 15 million. Fight off the pirates? Shires are good, but alone they aren't good enough to out-fight anything more than a fighter or a PTrans who doesn't know how to fly his ship. Hire escorts? Doesn't matter how many escorts I get, because any pirate who's worth his salt'll still destroy my transport before he goes down, even if he has to dodge like a mad monkey on a sugar high while spamming CDs to do it. Plus, escorts cost money too, and thus I might lose just as much money hiring enough escorts to keep me safe as I would if I just payed all the pirates anyways.

Therefore, I want to trade... but the fact that I have to powertrade for hours anyways makes me tired of trading by the time I'm done, and I really don't feel like trading for the RP at that point. RPing while trading earns next to nothing - if I stop to RP whenever I can, which is what I'd like to do, I earn cash a sixth as fast as anyone else. In addition, Xoria designed trading for corp traders breaking embargos, blockade running, and using jump holes. In all reality, a corp trader would be quite law-abiding, and IC wouldn't just let anyone use jump holes and stay insured. They're close enough to Ageira that they'd probably support jump gates. As a result, you average corp trader can't run any of Xoria's high profit routes. On top of that, corp traders are even further restricted by docking - you wouldn't see an BMM transport docking on an IMG or Gateway base, nor would you see a Kishiro transport working for Samura. And every single house is at war with at least one other house, so every corp trader has to stay out of one house. Again, embargos; no corp trader in their right mind would take Libertonians goods to Rheinland or vice-verse. The same goes for Bretonian and Kusarian goods to their respective opposing nations.

Also, if you accept that you can't use jump holes, that limits trade even further. And that makes sense. You aren't going to be seeing Shetlands and Mastodons flying through Omicron Theta loaded with Gold... or you shouldn't be, anyhow.

In short, trading needs to be more profitable so we can enjoy RPing it instead of having to worry about earning enough money to even support ourselves, much less actually by new ships we need for other RPs. Before you go telling me characters should be supporting themselves, don't. My military people are hardly going to have to build their own ship up; they'll be issued their ship from a military stock. People come by lucky breaks. Things happen. Some of these things have existed in-RP for a long time, and it wouldn't make any sense for the characters not to have them. And so forth. Anyhow.

I rest my case.

Sirius under an economic crysis? - Exsiled_one - 09-07-2009

here's the deal. if you're in a rp faction and you have it THAT bad, your leader kinda sucks :/
I mean, do you even donate money weekly to the corporation bank so you can hire escorts, place bounties or simply purchase a gunboat to escort you.
Also, i know those 5k cargo ships look awesome, but flying a damn paper ship is dangerous. Noone said that you have to stick to tradelanes, even corp traders know to bend the way around things to escape some plundering. Maybe thats just me tho.. I know I'ld ask politely for escort in Liberty, or expect my faction to actually run trading ops (2 hours a day maybe) of organized trade thats also mandatory if you're online at the point. 4x 5k cargos and two gunboats and you'll pass most of things, earning roughly about 100mil per hour. There's plenty of ways to actually do it if you play with the right people.
But maybe I'm just living off ideals and I'll hit a brick wall when some trading corporation I start gets in trouble.

When a pirate flees from your gruop he's not allowed to engage you in next 4 hours as i understand correctly, doesn't matter if he died, so you dont even have to get an escort every time. Just round up all pirates when you bring the biggest punch to get em.

Sirius under an economic crysis? - FooFighter - 09-07-2009

' Wrote:We want them to learn the ways of roleplay before they jump into their first fighters and capital ships and go shoot stuff.

And there we go. I absolutely agree with you here - but trading is the wrong approach to this. Especially for a new player. Sure, established people or people who come here and quickly make friends won't have it that bad, they'll try to get into a trading faction or group and then will get some RP along their runs. Trading itself will still be horrible and boring, but at least they get *some* RP.

But that's not how it goes for most people. Most people create their first character, when they are lucky someone sends them 100k to get themselves a Rhino, and then, guess what they do...they'll mine near Pittsburgh or in Pennsylvania, mine for hours, without a lot of fun and without a lot of RP. They'll mine and mine and mine, maybe until they can afford themselves a Camara or similar freighter. Then they will trade, and trade, and trade. They now will occasionally get RP from pirates (if they are lucky and don't stumble upon the 2millordai GB pierats), but it won't really be amazing. Maybe they can listen to some veteran players RPing along the way, maybe they'll even take a break and listen to them. Now, if the newbie in question is stubborn enough, promising himself "There *will* be awesome RP for me too, I've read the forums, it can't be that bad as it is now, just wait 'till I get myself my first fighter" or alternately "olol jst wait m8, i soon have enough cash for BS and then I pwn u", he eventually will accumulate more wealth and leave the most frustrating phase in his or her Disco "career".

Couldn't we do better? IMO, newbies should be thrown right into RP, they should be a part of the faction they chose from the beginning on, not just some dude in a Starflea grinding. Especially since said grinding is, gameplay-wise, absolutely no fun - you can't even hope to get into some PvP with a chance of winning (unless you have a Cap8 liner or a heavily armed Shire, but in that case, you ain't no newbie anymore).

Almost nobody here likes trading. Few people would ever do it if they didn't need the cash. I don't do it, I've got a shared Nomad Battleship and a shared OC Dessie, plus 2 GBs and a lot of fighters. I keep my ships armed and repaired by bounty hunting - it's fairly lucrative (hey, 5 millions for a Bounty Hunter is good cash) and it, unlike trading, actually tends to be fun. Every now and then I can even set up a new fighter (I could also set up a bomber, but I suck in them:P). I've given up any desire to own a bigger ship - not because I wouldn't love to RP a giant warship, but because it's far too expensive and I'm not going to grind for hours just to get one. I can get RP in a smaller ship just as well, and I actually tend to survive much longer in a fighter or a GB than in said Nomad Battleship I occasionally take out for a "walk".

Yes, trading sucks - but on the other hand, the necessity to trade is a necessary evil. If there weren't any traders, what would pirates do? Pirate NPC trains and fight the House militaries? Doesn't sound that awesome to me, no, piracy can be fun. As much as I'd love to, we can't just remove the trading aspect from the game completely. But currently, it's taking overhand, especially since the value of credits got nerfed. Xoria's trade system is an awesome simulation of the economy crisis indeed - runs don't really generate a lot of cash, and many things got a lot more expensive in .86 too (just compare capship armor upgrade prices, or liner prices, or or or). I wouldn't go as far as calling trading the lifeblood of the server, as some do, but without any doubt it's important that there are guys in transports roaming Sirius.

So, what could be done about the problem trading is? My proposals would be (this is also where the important part of my post starts, for your tl;dr guys):
  • Buff credits, do new routes.
Seriously. Give every faction that has a reason to trade two or three short, but good routes. No need to send them all over Sirius or on three-way-trips, two-way trading isn't that bad, especially when the route is rather short: it gives you the possibility of actually RPing with the guys in the systems you are passing through. And if said routes would generate profits of ~60 millions or more in an hour in a medium transport, people would also be able to just slow down a bit and to RP, maybe give a pirate some tax money or the authorities a little bribe. People wouldn't need to worry about losing profit anymore.
  • Buff freighters and transports.
This is rather important as well. As I've mentioned already, attempting to do PvP combat in trading ships is more futile than Xan from BG could imagine...well, OK, if you're flying a Shire or a Liner with some heavy hull upgrade, you *might* stand a chance against people, but that's it. Give them good guns. Freighters should be somewhere between SHFs and Gunships when it comes to firepower, Transports should have the firepower of a GB or even a bit more, though with rather restricted mobility. Freighers should be quick and agile (for cargo ships, that is), able to evade the authorities when smuggling or pirates when doing lawful trade. You should be able to make around 30 to 50 millions per hour, depending on the riskiness of the route you're trading on. Transports should be giant hauler ships. Slow and vulnerable to a team of foes that can outmaneuver them, but heavily armed so they are able to take quite some punishment while their escorts try to fend potential attackers off. The cash that could be generated with them should be around 100 to 200 millions per hour; of course, these 100 millions would be split up multiple escorts. Pirating such a big Transport should be the dream of every criminal. It should be highly dangerous, it should be a small battle, but if they either get the transport captain to pay up or manage to crack open his cargo bay, they should expect themselves a small fortune. This way, teamwork (something Discovery is sadly missing - it's basic premise seems to be "as long as you just grind enough, you can get whatever you want") would be strongly encouraged. Teamwork leads to RP. Trading, especially in big ships, would become (more of) a thrill and an interesting activity to do, even if you don't need cash really badly. It would also open up other ways of earning cash - much higher bounties could be placed, and escorting people would be lucrative as well (right now, I'd *never* do it unless I'm expecting some awesome RP along the way).
  • Skip the frustrating Starflea/Rhino phase newbies have to face.
Make it possible to start out as a properly repped character in a HF, Mk1 Freighter or LF of any faction you want (sans the admin-repped ones of course) per FLHook command. Nothing is more frustrating than the first 3 or 4 hours you spend on Discovery, and I wouldn't be astonished if it turns many people away, especially the ones that are here for the RP. It might as well spread people throughout Sirius. I believe NY is mainly as well populated because it's where most players stay when they "grow out" of their 'fleas. Many people attract other people, especially if they all are just one system away from your "birthplace". But if you gave people the possibility of starting out as whatever they want, without having to fly throughout Sirius and do tedious trading and repping first, maybe we'd finally see some more KNF, Blood Dragons, Gallic unlawfuls, etc.

I know that what I proposed here would be a lot of work - but I'm sure there'd be quite a few people willing to work on this (including me). Maybe we *can* fix trading. But we need to start working on it, else, things likely will stay as they are - utterly broken and devoid of anything even remotely resembling fun.

Sirius under an economic crysis? - johnpeter - 09-07-2009

I agree with Nathrael fully... Besides buffing transports/freighters
Also, smuggling needs a major profit increase.
And "Roleplayers don't have the patience to power trade, while Out of roleplayers do" is completely true.

Sirius under an economic crysis? - Taffic - 09-07-2009

I like the new trading system its certainly a little screwed up in places & tougher to make money, but we now have trade all over Sirius as supposed to Diamond-Niobium power trading of yesteryear. Its also opened up new trading relations with groups wed previously not interacted with and for that Im extremely grateful. I only (now) play Trafalgar Junkers, I dont actually need any more money & I enjoy our local RP & interactions with others. Its not a grind, I dont think it needs fixing, I am content with the hard work that has gone into this economic system. If anything as Ivan illustrated its too easy to make money.

On final note - Ive only been pirated when I was being careless so its my own dumb fault.


Sirius under an economic crysis? - Exsiled_one - 09-07-2009

Actually it depends on the player. We have recently gotten few players that are totally fresh to this and they have managed to start from scrap with help of the faction they got recruited into.

If first start is visitng the forums as it should be, there's no problem applying for a faction or two to see where do you fit in. And if they can't lend you 10mil minimum then I dunno who can.
Point is interaction, and if you go the solo way, you deserved the solo way. Sorry but your scenario sounds like doomsday scenario for this game.

Sirius under an economic crysis? - Violette - 09-07-2009

I hate the economy, its a grindfest...

I shouldn't have to waste hours and hours to have fun. I find it hard to RP when it's the money I'm looking for.

Even worse when pirates demand I drop my cargo or give unreasonable amounts.


Fixing it would be nice.

Sirius under an economic crysis? - Elsdragon - 09-07-2009

Yeah, I cant RP while trading and still make money

Sirius under an economic crysis? - RonG777 - 09-07-2009

I gotta side with Traffic on this one. I kinda like the new trading system myself. Sure, everyone would like to find an extremely easy and highly profitable trade route like the old diamond / niobium run. But I feel this system gives a more "realistic", role play type of economy. A starting character shouldn't be able to be millionaires after the first trade run. While granted, it is hard for player factions or players with high maintenance characters to generate funds, it is not impossible. I still can make good money on my trading character for all my characters and still contribute to whatever faction or players I choose.

Sorry If I am off topic on the following, but I feel this is related in a way to this topic . . .

The only point I would like to say is to the pirate characters out there. Just take into consideration that the trading business is about 50% Less profitable than in the previous mod, and smaller trading ships don't make the credits as the super transports. .


Sirius under an economic crysis? - Canadianguy - 09-07-2009

Like many said, the new trade system has its advantages that should not be changed, the biggest being making RP routes profitable and making almost every routes about as much profitable.

But yes, trading is becoming a chore.
I do not think that raising profits or lowering prices will reduce cap spam. Actually, like someone said earlier, OORPers do have the patience to trade for hours, RPers dont.