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+--- Thread: Mining profits (/showthread.php?tid=29433)
Mining profits - Marlowe221 - 11-06-2009
Thank you for clarifying that Cannon, I was not aware of that fact.
But I'm sure you can see the problem that this creates. When LPI-JohnnyLaw shows up on the scene, how does he know/tell which transport is the pirate and which is the victim?? All the pirate has to do is lie (inRP or OoRP) - how can the trader prove otherwise?
Especially, when someone's rep sheet is OoRP and both show as neutral which is frequently the case (I am not claiming that this is always intentional - reps can be funny things).
Mining profits - mwerte - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:But I'm sure you can see the problem that this creates. When LPI-JohnnyLaw shows up on the scene, how does he know/tell which transport is the pirate and which is the victim?? All the pirate has to do is lie (inRP or OoRP) - how can the trader prove otherwise?Oh no! they might have to *gasp* RP it out! How horrifying!
:nyam:
Mining profits - Marlowe221 - 11-06-2009
I would love to see some actual RP from a pirate in Liberty. I gladly pay for such when on my trader.
But you're missing the point. IDs exist for both RP and gameplay/rules reasons.
When and ID is ambigous about the lawful/unlawful status of a character it can create problems that cannot necessarily be RPed away. That is my point.
Mining profits - BaconSoda - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:I think one of the biggest things I have seen happen is Miner IDs transports pirating other Miner ID'd transports in huge groups. There has been this large movement of players in liberty who stalk the miners and then take their cargo as they start transporting it home. They aren't actual pirates, more just like mining bullies. Police and Navy authorities are slow to do anything usually cause they can never tell who is the real bad guys cause they just look like miners (and sometimes lie in game about what they've been doing). But yeah this is all remedied by hiring escort bombers.
I am surprised I haven't seen any new mining factions grow a lot, or existing corps start creating mining divisions. Those would definitely be willing to hire escorts or have members whose sole duty is protection
I'm not sure if this is a complaint or what, but, I mostly agree with your last two points. If a transport is your problem, get a bomber escort. It's a really simple fix. And how much do you lose by getting a bomber escort? Six to Ten million in an hour? But, wait, you make some 30-40 million, right? Pure greed if you're complaining about pirates but unwilling to solve the RP problem with RP...
And why haven't corps grown? More RP, I say! We need more BMM and IMG in Dublin to help Gateway and BowEx ship more RP goods!
But on your first point about the Miner IDed players, aren't they just engaging in good RP if the police can't tell? I mean, as long as they're smart enough to pirate when Police aren't around, how are the police supposed to tell? It would be like if a Vigilante killed a Planetform with Gaian Wildlife in New London and the trader reported it to my BPA. How am I supposed to know who to believe? There are just two people: A civilian and a guy yelling.
' Wrote:This... and it's becoming quite annoying. It really makes one wonder why the LPI/other liberty authority doesnt have penn locked down, since it's become (or maybe always has been) such a pirate hotspot, especially near Tremont. Guess they have their hands full with all the whackos running around in NY attacking people for no reason OORP.
Annoying is a good word. It's really annoying when a pirate wins, yes, but what are you going to do to stop it? Try making a Merc Bomber and charging people to defend Tremont. The Roc or Havok are both great ships (despite what people say about the Havok). And if they don't want to pay, well, there is always Dublin., Tau-23, Omega-7, or Omega-11 to mine in. There are more places than Pennsylvania.
' Wrote:I'm a trader. A DSE official faction trader and I don't mind being pirated.
Let me say that one more time: I don't mind being pirated.
Here's what I DO have a problem with:
Twice now I have been pirated by players who have IDs that, as far as I can recall, do not allow piracy. One was a Freelancer ID'd player and one was a Miner ID'd player. The ships were questionable as well; one of them pirated me in a GMG transport. Furthermore, while I will admit that it is technically within the rules, I do not consider a demand for ALL my cargo to be reasonable in terms of RP or gameplay in most scenarios (well-RP'd Xenos are a noted exception). In both these instances, these lolpirates demanded ALL of my cargo with only minimal RP.
Furthermore, the contention that most pirates cannot sell the ore themselves is preposterous. Most pirates I've seen were neutral to me and I am green with all lawful Liberty factions and red to all the unlawful ones since I am a DSE transport. Most of the pirates I have seen in Liberty lately have shown white on the scanner. If they are white to me, most likely they can land and sell the ore as well.
In the past, I have interacted with inappropriately ID'd pirates before. I did not report them as I could have. I RPed with them if they showed a willingness to do so. I gave them money as demanded. Only afterwards have I informed the pirate, via PM, that they might want to read their ID closely and make any change they feel are appropriate in case they run into a less understanding player than myself. In those instances, the response from the pirate has been positive.
I like the fact that the new mining system encourages both cooperative and adversarial player interaction in the game. What I don't like is the lolpirate epidemic we seem to be experiencing in Liberty. A system that leads to more player interaction should also lead to more RP. While it would be nice to assume that the former implies the latter, I think we can all see that this is not the case.
I am not sure what the solution is, although I have a few ideas. One suggestion is that as soon as you mount an ID, your reputation is automatically adjusted accordingly.
But pirating by players with the wrong IDs has to stop.
Notice to pirates: If you make a reasonable request and RP with me you will get exactly what you want with very little resistance on my part. However, if you request ALL my cargo, or offer little to no RP, I will refuse and allow you to destroy me, leaving you with scraps.
Why can't everyone have fun?
You see, you're not having fun because you're not conventionally winning. I'm sure the pirates are having fun because they are winning, and from what TYH wrote, they're RPing too. Miner ID can pirate Ore. Read it. GMG Miner, well, that sounds kind of odd, but, maybe it has something to do with their RP? One can always hope...
Please do expand on what you mean by lolpirate epidemic. Specific examples on what exactly makes the pirates in Liberty so much more "lolzy" than pirates elsewhere would be nice. I don't quite get why people keep saying that. I guess they're just applying it to everyone who pirates in a style they don't exactly agree with.
Mining profits - Tomtomrawr - 11-06-2009
I say the profits are fine as they are now (for where I mine anyway). Now we're actually making decent money. With this new trading I have hated trading even more, it is no longer worth the time to get the money. Mining however is worth the time.
So please, keep the profits as they are now or raise them (for ones that need to be raised).
Mining profits - Marlowe221 - 11-06-2009
I'm not sure how else to say it. This has nothing to do with whether or not I "win." I'm here because I like to RP - nothing more. I will happily comply with any RP pirate and not say a word of complaint about it. Here is an example:
Zelot pirated me the other day in New Tokyo. He demanded half my cargo. We had what I considered to be some great RP. I handed over half my cargo.
No one has heard me complain about it. Nor will they ever hear me complain about it. In fact I gave him and all the AFA a kudos in the appropriate thread.
I already admitted my mistake about the Miner ID - I am human and capable of error. Scroll up. Read it. (See? I can be blunt for no reason too):).
Pirate demands are required to be reasonable are they not? What does reasonable mean?
I am not whining. I am pointing out problems I have noticed with the past few days primarily in Liberty space. I gave two examples. I did not name names for the same reason I did not file sanction reports - I do not believe that to be the solution. Plus, I wanted to give the players concerned the benefit of the doubt in case I was mistaken on some point or other (as it turned out that I was about the Miner ID).
I do not believe that traders are innocent here either. I will gladly discuss the other side of the coin with you if you can do so in a civil and intellectually honest manner - which is what I have been doing my best to do in this post.
Thank you.
Mining profits - Tomtomrawr - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:I do not believe that traders are innocent here either./signed. Do you know how many traders I've stopped on my LR characters that start shooting at me the second they can? (Which is instantly) Six out of ten traders I pulled up from the trade lanes either started shooting at me or tried to engage cruise. When I stopped them from cruising, then they engage me without a word.
I believe it is a cross between the pirates and the traders in Liberty that are the problem. A lot of trade routes go through Liberty and many of those make decent profits. Therefore the new players take those routes aswell. Or those who have been here for a couple of months and still have no idea what role-play is so take the shortest and profitable route with the biggest ship.
Mining profits - Dusty Lens - 11-06-2009
I'm inclined to agree with Cannon.
It's unfortunate but the experiment seems to be largely failing. A system designed to encourage teamwork is, instead, largely generating sanctions.
Players whom wish to mine and then sell their product unmolested choose to, instead of hiring a single bomber to cover their rears are instead resorting to sanction threats, ban threats or simply cursing out the pirating party in conjunction with untold numbers of f1s.
Mining transports, laded with 50 million in ore, fly without escort or even common armor and then fall into streams of swearing when they fall into a waiting trap.
I believe the worst that I have heard are complaints about groups of miner ID ships raiding Tremont. Apparently the chief complaint was that these miners raid the rings with such regularity that they return every 30 minutes to refill their holds like clockwork.
I found this to be the saddest thing I have ever heard.
The persons whining about being pirated were pirated by the same group of 3-5 transports over and over and over and over and over again were complaining to -me- to remove their ability to do so. They weren't seeking to defend themselves, they didn't think to take care of their own mess. They didn't think of capitalizing on their own ID's ability to jump said miners, rob them blind and then blow them to hell.
They wanted me to make it impossible for those people to pirate them so they could powermine in defenseless mining ships in peace.
A lot of work went into the mining mod and I would like to continue to realize the vision that it represented. But as it stands I don't think that the bulk of the server possesses the maturity to manage the concept of labouring to secure their fortune, defending it and then capitalizing on it. Better they spend 2 million to fill their hold so instead of screaming **** YOU ******* YOU BANNED when requested to drop 1000 ore they simply shout LOL JUST KILL ME when requested to hand over 2 million.
Mining profits - Montezuma/Kukulcan - 11-06-2009
Well, as much as the immature and lolwuttish behavior can be prevelant, i believe that the mining mod is a great idea, one of the best features on disco IMO.
Dusty, dont let a bunch of retards ruin what you and Cannon have worked so hard to make this epic.
It would be a truely dark day for disco if it had to be scrapped just because some idiots couldnt play fair.
Mining profits - hribek - 11-06-2009
' Wrote:They wanted me to make it impossible for those people to pirate them so they could powermine in defenseless mining ships in peace.
Maybe it has something to do with their er ... how to say it politely ... maturity?
I mean, it's not uncommon and not entirely wrong for the smaller ones to ask their parents or stronger relatives to solve problems for them, usually the request is quite audible.
Or it might be something like a ... lack of ability to solve their problems by just thinking about it. But miners and their pirates - that's not the only case of these behavioral patterns occuring, if I remember correctly.
So yeah, let's nudge them in the right direction. Perhaps the Angels or local law enforcement might help with relaying the message "try to clean your own mess & mind your safety"?