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+--- Thread: PVP rules vs. RP (/showthread.php?tid=10775)
PVP rules vs. RP - Jinx - 07-29-2008
the thought that unchaining capital ships will result in an increase of them ( increase in terms of ooRP increase ) is guesswork that is mostly unfounded.
in a capital ship i feel MUCH more vulnerable than when i am flying in a bomber. - funny thing, isn t it? ... its not a feeling, its a fact. - i am more flexible in a bomber, i am much harder to hit, i can fly through debris and asteroids, and i am credited as "good roleplayer" - not cause i am, but cause i fly a fighter class ( BHG ... which is laughable )
as a pirate, i would still prefer a bomber over a cruiser or battleship to pirate - why? - cause i have no chance to really fight back as a warship. - when i m in a bomber, i can simply ignore it when the BPA or QCO ( in case i m on clover ) - approaches in anything bigger than a bomber themselves.
they come in a gunship? - i laugh... they come in a battleship? - i can play cat and mouse with them, while i am ALLWAYS safe. - the only time i am afraid is when i am outnumbered by fighters, especially the hussars.
now, when i was flying a corsair cruiser ( which would be the next best choice for the gaians ) - i would fear bombers, VHFs, gunboats and battleships. - furthermore, i cannot move as well as in a bomber - and i cannot take down a transports shields any faster than in a bomber, cause i simply outdamage a cruiser in a bomber. - of course.. from a transports guns, i am safer, cause he won t be able to penetrate the shields..... mind, i can use a gunboat for that feature, too.
another example is BHG. - i am flying a BHG bomber right now, and i am fairly safe. i can rape even keeper ships when i m lucky - and i can usually easily outperform the slow titans in delta. - i can make a point against enemy cruisers even by taking their shields down - and with some luck, score a few hull hits.. and all the time, i am perfectly safe. ( or as safe as it gets ) ....
if i was flying a destroyer however... i would have trouble against a corsair cruiser - i wouldn t even be able to take down a well flown corsair gunboat. nomad raid groups ( NPC ) would damage me much more than they do when i fly a bomber. - single VHF are not such a terrible danger ( unless they have infernos ) - but two of them will put me into mortal danger for sure. - it does not feel like i am flying a more powerful ship - not at all... and the destroyer would need to be buffed up greatly get such a safe feeling that i have when i fly a BHG bomber.
or in short, i do not believe the argument that if the warships were treated the way they are supposed to would result in a massive increase of warships in a negative way. - it would however, change a lot on the server, indeed... but its hard to say if its for the better or the worse.
PVP rules vs. RP - ScornStar - 07-29-2008
I concede on criuse rules. I see from the first post of Del's after reread why = administrative logisitcs.
Fine.
But if anything we the ("elite" when compaired to NPCs) should be RPing more from capitals. Fighters are for short range patrol. They are supposed to have less of everything. As it is now they are the "golden child" of the server.
I have seen RPs were admirals fly fighters or bombers:haha: Thats not RP if anything is RP, thats purely a stick the old man in the most servivable ship (game mechanics) as opposed to Admirals going to the front in thier mobile bases and giveing breifings in thier board rooms on ship.
ANyway no need to say all over again, caps are comical now, I stick to them for better RP, not PVP. In terms of PVP, I'd just go buy a Taidani Bomber, its fast, small, tough, and even class 9 fighter guns do more damage than gunboats guns and codes do more than a criuser.
So, in effect we have micro criusers with supernovas attacking with no restrictions anything and, out regening, out thrusting, out manuvering, and out damageing any trade/capital ship, while at the same time being considered out RPing. This is a flawed balance, that has not helped RP but nurtured fighter jocks.
PVP rules vs. RP - DarthCloakedGuy - 07-29-2008
Okay, I did not create this thread to discuss capital ship balance. While Capital-class starships are by far too accessable to every non-RP Tom, Dick, and Larry on the server, they are not what I was asking about.
I was asking about why escaping from the fight WITH your life is, as far as the rules are concerned, exactly the same as dying in combat, mainly. Also loadouts when both in and out of RP they are more than accessable from untrained, grunt (NPC) pilots. Things like that.
PVP rules vs. RP - ScornStar - 07-29-2008
' Wrote:Okay, I did not create this thread to discuss capital ship balance. While Capital-class starships are by far too accessable to every non-RP Tom, Dick, and Larry on the server, they are not what I was asking about.
I was asking about why escaping from the fight WITH your life is, as far as the rules are concerned, exactly the same as dying in combat, mainly. Also loadouts when both in and out of RP they are more than accessable from untrained, grunt (NPC) pilots. Things like that.
I appologize I saw the name and saw PVP rules vs RP. Thus I started discussing a set of rules that I am trying to come to terms with.
Some I did so, thank you your thread has answered some questions I have had since I got here.
Thank you.
PVP rules vs. RP - DarthCloakedGuy - 07-29-2008
' Wrote:I appologize I saw the name and saw PVP rules vs RP. Thus I started discussing a set of rules that I am trying to come to terms with.Glad to hear you've gotten more out of it than I have. All I've seen is "restrict capships!" "No!" "Yes!" "No!" "Yes!" "No!" ...
Some I did so, thank you your thread has answered some questions I have had since I got here.
Thank you.
PVP rules vs. RP - ScornStar - 07-29-2008
' Wrote:I've been going over the rules and the only thing the PvP rules need is some polish, in the main.
4 hour rule: For death this makes perfect RP sense, but it also serves the function of preventing hot-headed folks going in for revenge killing. Without it there'd be no mechanism for punishing those folks who just want to make other folks live's a misery. For fleeing it's not so clear cut in RP, but if you run away from a fight, why would you want to return? You've fled once, to my mind you should be wanting to lay low and avoid whatever it is you fled from. Sure tell your buddies to go deal with it. But you risk your enemy targeting you just to ensure they do the job properly this time, if you return. To my mind that's as good an RP justification as the rule needs. For PvP purposes it prevents folks running to dock and refuelling bots/bats just to prolong a fight. If someone runs off scanner range and returns you cannot proove whether he docked or not.
Cruising in combat rule: This one can become unclear depending on the circumsatnces but it still serves a fundamentally useful purpose. Cruising in combat can and would increase fight times by a huge amount, enough to not make them fun anymore. It is about PvP remaining fun and not being a burden on both parties.
Piracy in anything bigger than a gunboat: I like this rule and I'm not going to advocate it's removal anytime soon, in RP it makes sense why on earth would you pirate in something that can't run? Two fighters and a transport is far more cost effective and efficient. It has the firepower to defend itself, it's not easy prey for a bomber and has the manouevrability to turn tail and flee when the local law brings out the big guns. Which is what pirates should be doing. Pirates shouldn't be after Navy and police kills they should be after loot and cash.
The lawfuls doing it makes sense as well, as the Royal Navy has been known to capture smugglers in it's rather large and overpowered ships. At least compared to the smuggling vessels. Now Pirates asking for contraband according to them, e.g. Artifacts, Cardamine and allied pilots is different and I see no reason to not allow them to seize these things
Those are the rules I see a lot of folks have issue with I hope this helps.
Anrde DelArco
This was the post that changed some of my opinions yes on page two but, helpful none the less. Iand other then continued to discuss other points in which we are not on the same sheet of music. This is a very helpful thread wether it turned out what you wanted exactly or not.
This thread has been flame free and full of diverse points of view this thread is a win.
PVP rules vs. RP - Raekur - 07-30-2008
' Wrote:Cruising in combat rule: This one can become unclear depending on the circumsatnces but it still serves a fundamentally useful purpose. Cruising in combat can and would increase fight times by a huge amount, enough to not make them fun anymore. It is about PvP remaining fun and not being a burden on both parties.
If the main reason for not permitting cruising in combat was that it would increase combat times, why is there no rule in regards to flying off the map.
Doesn't this also increase the amount of time of an engagment?
It is a lot easier to stop a person from entering cruise then it is knocking them out of one.
There are even some capital ships that are very difficult to prevent from entering cruise and other capital ships that you look at crosseyed and they cant enter cruise.
PVP rules vs. RP - Laowai - 07-30-2008
' Wrote:So we're down to cap rules, okay let me put this to you. If we totally unnerf Capships and allow them to do as they please, i.e. pirate., what would be the net effect of this? I put it to you that we'll see an increase in the number of capital class vessels, more so than at the moment, to the point where we were before capships were nerfed to make fighters seem more shiny. Yes capital ships need an un-nerf, at the moment they are large lumps of lumpishness, but I'd rather not see them allowed to pirate on the grounds that these ships would get overused once again. Hopefully the proposed changes to capital class vessels will render them more capable against bombers, but still fighter escort is your best friend against bombers. As it should be.
I see what you're saying Del - but i don't agree that the doomsday scenario you're proposing if caps were allowed to pirate would necessarily eventuate. And unless their really changed in the next mod as you said to be able to defend against bombers more of them doesn't mean they still wont be killed easily enough.
From what im reading into it - the piracy rule seems to exist purely to limit capship numbers, and not protect anybody (except people who want to fly fighters and not have to deal with caps that is)
Capships that pirate would still be governed by PVP rules the same as anyone else. Added to that, there are players who will not use a capship anyway, regardless of whether it can pirate or not.