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+--- Thread: What is considered fleeing... (/showthread.php?tid=11159)
What is considered fleeing... - Reverend Del - 08-11-2008
As the rules are written the first player to engage cruise for whatever reason is fleeing. Regardless of the direction he's cruising in.
Kane, not hoodlum, stated that it does not matter how you flee, via tradelanes cruising or thrusters or in fact swimming, you have fled, but only once you are out of scanner range. Take that as gospel.
However if you fly 10k away from a fight only to turn round and re-engage, I would consider that re-engagement. At the moment the fleeing and re-engagement rules need some work to make them clear. They are being looked at.
Frankly use common sense, if someone is far too far from a fight to be considered still in, then he should be considered fleeing. However if they got that far via thrusters do not engage cruise to catch up as you become the one that is fleeing, by any interpretation of the rules.
What is considered fleeing... - Alexander Draconis - 08-11-2008
It's hard to decide specifics of something like dog fighting when there are so many tactics to deal with, whether balanced, unbalanced but sensible, and just cheesy.
=(
I myself have been tempted towards bending the rules just because it would have been poor role play for me to compromise my in-character actions because of rules that don't make full sense to someone like me who sees the fairness in the unfairness of some tactics.
Specifically if you haven't been shot down, I don't understand the no reengaging rule. If you can escape to a safe distance, reposition yourself, and reengage from a more favorable vector, that's the logical strategy for some battles; especially if you were ambushed. Sure some of these tactics seem unfair or can draw out battles, but that's how fighting is sometimes. Often a battle is won when the opponent simply can't keep up and decides to flee simply from being tired of the fight itself.
Gaining distance, taking a breather and assessing one's options before reengaging is also something I tend to do.
But we must try to obey the rules where we can and mediate between players whenever possible. I don't report half the PKs I've suffered under-level because I mediate with some people who fly at me like a bat out of nowhere and blast me to scrap. If we can work it out ourselves to we are both having fun and no one else suffers any slights, it smooths things along a lot for us and keeps the issue out of the admin's hair. (announcing wishes to reengage and giving players a chance to accept or deny that request for example).
Anyway, that's my thoughts about the engagement rules. I know I'm not in any way authorized to make policy or sway public opinion, just sharing the things that have made many RPGs run well for me and my friends in the past.
What is considered fleeing... - Dusty Lens - 08-11-2008
While it would be nice to see the 10k rule added to the gospel, I thought this conversation warranted another bit.
If it's not written in the server rules, don't preach your interpretation of things (I'm looking at you Fletcher) to anyone, especially not curious new folks like the Eagles.
What is considered fleeing... - Baltar - 08-11-2008
]Where are you guys getting 'shield running' from? The cruise rule has addressed that issue already.
Capitals shield running through thrusting is a laughable thing. They'll just turn their backs to attacks since they can't engage cruise to get the distance necessary for this tactic to be effective.
Fighters shield running has controversy spelled all over it. The community can't even come to terms with deciding if the term even applies to fighter combat.[/quote]
Shield running is not spelled out in the rules ... but you CAN get sanctioned for it. Try doing a search on "Shield Running" ... you'll be surprised. Admins have declared it a violation ... it just has not made it to print yet.
Here's some links that might help you:
1. DimSSS - sanctioned on 16 June 2008
2. Pijane_Budale*BOS*- sanctioned for shield running on 16 June 2008
3. --=HUN|TER=-_Ryu- sanctioned for shield running on 26 February 2008
4. Ikarus and Smeagol - sanctioned for shield running on 22 February 2008
5. ADMIN NOTICE, Cap Ship Cruise/Intentional Ramming - posted on 10 September 2006 -- pay particular attention to Fellow Hoodlum's comment on 18 September 2006 at 03:45 PM -- Good ol' Hood
Here's a long discussion on this very discussion on 23 June 2008: Hitting cruise to catch up an afterburnering pilot, When is it legal?
And another on cruising to catch up on 21 April 2008: Cruise to catch up.....Allowed?
And on thrusting away on 19 April 2008: Thrusting away clarification
Or how about boosting away on 5 April 2008: Boosting Away From A Fight, How far until it's considered a retreat?
Here's one by Chopper on 25 March 2008: Gray area, need clarification
Another one on 12 March 2008: Tactical Retreat vs Fleeing, When to Re-engage and when not to
Do you want more?
' Wrote:</cite>Oh, so we should stay inside 1400m then so he can hit us? Poor him, I don't care about his low speed.
If he can't get me, fighters can.
I'm telling you, it's totally legit to keep a distance from capital ships.
If fighters decide not to chase him, it's their own fault.
Otherwise you may just as well say it's forbidden to dodge.
As far as the rules go, leaving a scanner range is considered fleeing.
Now what's fair and not fair, that's not on me to discuss. It's a very subjective thing.</blockquote><br />
Read the above discussions I've linked above Chopper ... you'll enjoy the one you started on the subject.
<blockquote class="mycode_quote"><cite> Wrote:what you did is called evasive maneuvers and tactics. You have not fled from the battle.
I think the involved person in fact contacted you. In a group discussion, we came out with an identical vision of the rule that Chopper explain quite clearly
If you disapear from scanners (best 15k, just to keep it fair) both of you are out of engagement ... But ehh,,, who must leave the system in that scenario??????
Yup ... but ... please read all the links I've included above
[quote= Wrote:Guys, you have to stop making these crazy statements. You're respected members of the community and people take you seriously. chopper, where in the rules is written anything remotely similar to that which you've just stated?
Do a simple search on "scanner" or "sensor" on the rules page and the only thing you'll find is the battleship license.
Do a search on "shield running" and you'll find nothing.
Serious, people. This isn't helping. Don't make things up out of impressions and wishful thinking.
Gronath ... I did a search on "shield running" ... read the links I found. You might be surprised at what you find. One of these goes all the way back to September 2006 where Fellow Hoodlum (admin) quite pointedly states that Shield Running is not allowed.
Enjoy the light reading folks.
What is considered fleeing... - John Keel - 08-11-2008
Jeez this really needs clarification. Although funnily enough only since reading this topic have I become overly confused.
I'll add another question to the pot: Say I was cruising around New York as my LR, and I get picked up by a LPI on long range scanners. He swings around to give chase, but is around 8k away from me, only just keeping in range. Now I have places to be, people to see and don't really want to stop and engage to sort this out, because that could end up with me losing and being barred from New York for four hours, so I continue cruising.
Now, am I fleeing? Technically combat hasn't started, but he's flying to me with the intent of starting it, so really I am indeed fleeing him. Is there a concrete ruling on this or is it just another grey area?
What is considered fleeing... - Seth Karlo - 08-11-2008
I still go by Hoodlums description of it: "I don't care if you cruise out, thruster out or row the damn thing out. Your out."
It's pretty obvious if someone is fleeing, they move away and stop firing. Usually if I flee I post on system chat something like "I'm too badly messed up right now, I'm outta here"
Seth
What is considered fleeing... - Reverend Del - 08-11-2008
He may have an intent to start an engagement, but until an engagement is started there isn't an engagement. Ergo you cannot flee from said engagement before it has started.
To be clearer: No, until you've exchanged fire there isn't a combat to flee from.
What is considered fleeing... - El Nino - 08-11-2008
' Wrote:Here's the link you're looking for ... Discovery Server Rules
But you won't find Shield Running spelled out for ya there. It is a rule ... just isn't spelled out in there.
Well why is it not spelled out then?
If shield running on thrusters is no longer allowed, why are gunboats shield runing on my BS all the time?
What is considered fleeing... - Jinx - 08-11-2008
server reality does not recognize a range of 10k+ ( scanner range ) as a trigger to be allowed to chase ( cruise ). and it would be strange, too..... i had a pvp against a bomber, a gunboat and a battleship yesterday. - i thrusted away, and at a range of around 2k, the gunboat engaged cruise to catch up, while the bomber has no trouble to chase of course, the battleship didn t even bother to catch up ( reasonable behaviour ).
but if the gunboat had to wait for 10.000 distance to be able to cruise..... it would have to wait for quite some time. - of course ... "you can chase once the target leaves weapon range" is silly, cause some weapons, as said, only have a range of like 500 which any fighter leaves in less than a second - especially when jousting.
the distance that is needed to activate cruise and be considered CHASING and not FLEEING is very subjective. - yesterday, it felt "right". - but if the "you must be out of scanner range" was a rule, it would have been a violation.
i am not sure if it "should" be put into a rule with exact numbers - as every battle is different... and its hard to keep track of everything... a lot of it is about feelings if its right or not. personally i believe its detrimental to set a fixed distance from where you can chase ( unless its such a great distance that its almost not worth it anymore ) .... means, when its really sensor range ( 10k ) - then its not really worth starting to chase anymore anyway...... as what chances are there to catch someone that has a 10k headstart when you don t even know where he is anymore.
What is considered fleeing... - chopper - 08-11-2008
Quote:Guys, you have to stop making these crazy statements. You're respected members of the community and people take you seriously. chopper, where in the rules is written anything remotely similar to that which you've just stated?
Do a simple search on "scanner" or "sensor" on the rules page and the only thing you'll find is the battleship license.
Do a search on "shield running" and you'll find nothing.
Serious, people. This isn't helping. Don't make things up out of impressions and wishful thinking.
I wasn't. I made it quite from my own experience. I can't prove it to you that it's true, but it is.
And here above the admin confirmed it.
Quote:Kane, not hoodlum, stated that it does not matter how you flee, via tradelanes cruising or thrusters or in fact swimming, you have fled, but only once you are out of scanner range. Take that as gospel.
As for shield running, it wasn't my intention to say that it's forbidden.
I also know there is no rule about shield-running, since it's covered with the cruise rule.
I was just trying to separate two things, shield running from shield camping.
First one requires cruise on a capital ship and thus is forbidden.
Second one requires dodging like hell and thus is allowed.