Notice on the Salvaging Service

Notice on the Salvaging Service - Printable Version

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RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Sombs - 11-12-2016

(11-12-2016, 03:07 PM)Hannibal Wrote:
(11-12-2016, 02:47 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: This isn't about SRPs.
(11-12-2016, 02:47 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: This is about ships used by IDs that can use them with 100%-75% set technerf.
this is exactly what srps are and why they should be limited oops i read it wrong since from the main post i understand something quite different ..

Good thing you took that back before I was able to respond to that.

Quote:
(11-12-2016, 02:47 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: I refuse to wait to log for an player event, as it would both require me to wait weeks before being able to do something as well as it would be a bit metagamey to always show up when there is an event somewhere
you can sell some parts required for others to be repaired or do something else, buy scraps from other players, maybe even create events yourself or propose some that will last longer (days?)

Yes, I can sell parts back to people, like I do/did with Auxesia here. Via PM someone even asked me if he could join that gameplay conception and I think it could be that I work together with the Junkers every now and then. However, I don't see the neccessity to create events only to justify salvaging debris, as it should be just as justified as claiming bounties, doing MDs and all that is. Do I really need to repeat over and over that things are ingame happening inRP every time? Like Demonic says, there is no reason to exclude salvaging from that.

Quote:
(11-12-2016, 02:47 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: Even when people explain their ships, when blued, didn't get destroyed but only heavy damaged or made a emergency cloak, the ships would have lost some parts by getting the parts shot off.
aren't you one of those peoples? i mean would you mind if i delete your ship next time it gets destroyed and let the junkers scrap it?
i'm sure its nothing losing those 500 mils for the ship and another 500 mil for cloak or maybe lower depends on when you bought the cloak or even a jumpdrive so you don't have to spend minutes traveling to a system just to get there when its all over?

And here you come up with nonsense. Yes, I'm one of the people that actually take their time to explain the very few times I lose my ship. For instance, when Spazzy allowed us to re-engage in Omicron Delta during the Santa Rosa anomaly event, I used the emergancy cloaking as an explanation, because everything else would be totally stupid. I later also actually used salvaged parts of already salvaged ships - and no, I didn't use the event as a salvage fest, as I said in the first post - to repair the damages on the Bustard.

I also never said one has to hardmode ships now, and I also wasn't talking of people losing ingame equipment. I was talking about things we have with vanilla ships - parts break off during a battle. Everyone remembers the little Kusari ships that got nearly invulnerable when they lost their wings, because the hitbox was broken as hell.

As I said, no matter if you RP your ship did die or didn't die or it just got heavily damaged as the result of getting blued, debris will be produced. And those things are what I will claim, while other people will claim bounties or boast in other threads and posts with the blues.

Please don't try to twist my words and read things as I wrote them. I surely won't powergame anyone to lose his ship during a fight he lost with a blue as a result. Debris, however, are a very, very, very reasonable minimum of remains of a battle.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Omi - 11-12-2016

(11-12-2016, 03:12 PM)Demonic Wrote: Everyone is using blues as RP thing. Why can't he?

(11-12-2016, 01:40 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: When people get shot, the character don't need to die or get hurt, but the ship lost parts during the fight, even when you RP the ship didn't get destroyed during a fight but only damaged. Every fight causes debris. I take them.

Blues are not always entirely iRP, so chill out there for a second. GRN doesn't piss away 5+ Valors iRP in every Magellan fight, and nor has Liberty managed to haemorrhage thousands - if not tens of thousands - of capital ships into scrap metal over the years Disco has been up. There isn't nearly as much scrap floating around as the PvP activity would sometimes entail, and if you can't dissociate between what happens from a gameplay perspective and what happens from an in-roleplay perspective then that's your problem, not mine or anyone else's.

(11-12-2016, 01:40 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: To be honest, while I partially agree with some SRP backstories are not of a quality I would be proud of, the special-snowflake-attitude is one of the shittiest things people came up with to be toxic against people that flesh their characters out. People get totally pissed by people giving their characters personality instead of having a character that is just a member of a faction and soulless enough to simply do what the superior says. Not that the latter is a bad thing. However, I don't get why people take joy in profiling with their disgust for other people's RP stories. That's one thing.

This is kind of off-topic, but since you mentioned it first I feel like I can point fingers at this. People (including myself) snarking and sneering at all the 'special snowflake' people who float around do have a leg to stand on, although it's never one that the players behind such unique and interesting characters seem to care about or grasp

. If you wanted me to sum it up as quickly as I could, it's simply that nobody really gives a shit about all these "special" characters other than the players directly involved with the things. When I was new here - and it's still a thing you can notice in new players today if you've ever played LPI - the characters that really captivated my interest and spurred me on to keep playing weren't the super duper Edison Trent copies who flew around fighting the Nomads and being a single player hero in a multiplayer world; it's the players actually playing a role that do it. There's so, so, so much room to form a whole ton of character development without breaking out of those relatively simple roles that the game world needs to still feel like it's somewhat alive. Every half-baked character straight out of teenage fanfiction flying around undermines the believability of the game world, and for some reason people always treat these characters as the hallmarks of great design, forethought, and writing when it's the actually well-written characters performing relatively simple roles that actually deserve the merit. If you want examples of what I'm talking about, look at anything @Commissar wrote when he still played here ( @Jane Hartman, @Sarah McFarlen, @Camille Gabriel ) These characters didn't need shiny SRPs or to travel all Sirius to be more fleshed out, realistic, and downright interesting than anything pretty much anyone has come up with since.

(11-12-2016, 01:40 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: I don't need an ooRP permission to get what is caused by someone getting shot ingame. I don't need your ooRP permission to loot the things your ship drops (Nanos, Commodities, Ammunition). All I need is being fast enough.

There are other people playing here than yourself. It should be considered at least a common courtesy to seek permission when you're trying to get your hands on another faction's tech - you've already mentioned how subjective a lot of the details are, which I agree with, but when it comes to any military tech (and in particular Gallia's, considering the centuries Gallia and Sirius have had to diverge in industrial standards) the idea that military-grade ships and weaponry can just be picked up and refurbished by any passing Junker is mind-blowing - assuming you can even consider the wrecks as still being there or being there at all in an iRP sense. You can write your own personal stories however you like - I don't think anyone is contesting that - but when you start incorporating elements of lore, gameplay, or fluff that belong to other factions, it should make at least a little bit of sense to anyone decent to clear the air by asking ooRP first.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Sombs - 11-19-2016

So here is the new write-up for the salvaging concept. If you have to add something constructive about it without drifting away from the topic like feeling the need of hating people that put effort in fleshing out their characters or anything else, feel free to share it. I think I gave this enough limits now. No Cruisers, no Battleships.

Salvaging Concept

Requirements

To salvage debris, at first you need a ship that is capable of salvaging larger objects. The following ship classes are or can be suited to use for this job:

Avatar	Ship Class	Salvaging Capacity per run
	CSV	1 Small Sized Wreck
	CSF	1 Small Sized Wreck
	Surveyor	1 Small Sized Wreck
	Collector	2 Small Sized Wrecks
	Recycler	2 Small Sized Wrecks
	Scraper	2 Small Sized Wrecks
	Plier	2 Small Sized Wrecks
	Wrecker	3 Small Sized Wrecks
	Salvager	3 Small Sized Wreck and 1 Medium Sized Wreck or 5 Small Sized Wrecks
	Bustard	3 Small Sized Wrecks and 2 Medium Sized Wrecks or 5 Small Sized Wrecks and 1 Medium Sized Wreck or 7 Small Sized Wrecks

Salvaging

Old wrecks are useless. They drift away too fast, become worthless due to radiation and micro-impacts of dust and rocks or are simply already salvaged by people that were faster than you. The best way to get your hands on good debris is to watch lawfuls and unlawfuls fighting each other.

Stay in range, but don't get yourself into trouble. You need to watch the fight. The better your sensor range is, the better it is. Cloaking Device? Yes, but make sure you don't piss off the wrong people. Cloaking Devices are allowed in Liberty and Bretonia, however, you want to make sure it stays that way and don't annoy your lawful friends.

Scan all ships in range (F9 + Screenshot), as you will need the information on the ship while it's still functioning. You want to know what you're collecting, as it is easy to mix up debris. Now just stay in range and alive until the scanned ships pop. Go to where the ship popped, use the tractor beam to prevent everything from drifting away and use your salvaging tools to get the debris. Keep in mind you have to drop your shields during the salvaging process, no matter what kind of tool you are using, be it salvaging drones or grippers. You may want to wait for the fight to be over and the combatants to have left the are. Remember: Your security is more important than any debris. You don't want your ship to be turned into debris, right?

However, if you didn't manage to claim the debris within two hours, it's very likely that other Junkers will arrive and pilfer what is left. If not that, then the radiation or other hostile environmental aspects will damage the debris, making it useless.

When a scanned ship pops, make a nice survey scan of it (Screenshot the blue kill message), so you always know how the remains looked like before you have a mountain of scrap in your cargo hold, unsorted, chaotic. From experience I know how much time it usually takes to salvage different kinds of debris. I added the average values to the table you find when scrolling down.

And now? You need a place to drop the debris off. That pretty much depends on what you're going to do with the scrap. The Culebra Smelter in Puerto Rico is a good stage to drop the debris off to recycle them, but you could also use the scrap to repair ships, or even restore them, if you have the know-how.

One last thing: Be careful with people knowing what you're doing. Some people don't mind salvagers, some people celebrate them and pay them for keeping the systems clean, and some people will hate and hunt you, as you are about to pilfer from the dead and take what was theirs once. Try to reason and deal with people. Find a compromise. Some people will don't care, some people will contract you. Some people will compete with you.

Restoration

If you decide to restore ships, you need to be really sure about what you're doing. It's dangerous and can put yourself into trouble. However, the higher the risk, the higher the reward. The black market is always interested in buying ships of all kinds. It's only a matter of time and connection until someone will show interest in what you have to offer. However, that requires you to actually have something to offer.

First you need to have a bit of knowledge about what you are going to restore. That requires you to try and puzzle together the debris you have, just to dismantle everything step by step again. And you will need to do that over and over again, and you need to record, catalogue and document what you're doing. (Forum-RP, get creative here.) Usually, it takes so many debris that you could have put together the ship three times if you had the knowledge. And don't try to cheat yourself here. Use only the fitting scrap parts. You don't want to have your test pilot suffering from a catastrophic decompression.

Once you have reverse-engineered the ship class, you should have enough knowledge to at least put together new found debris of that ship. Usually, ship facilities have their unique ways of manufacturing ship parts, and you won't be able to recreate those processes without having a giant facility or a Seamus-Harper-esque genius with you. That means even with having reverse-engineered blueprints, you have to rely on the right set of debris to rebuild a ship. See it as a challenge. They say the Junker Congress once was able to even restore a Hellfire Arbiter Dreadnought. Who knows what you will be able to pull off?

Size	Salvaging Time	Debris: Reverse-Engineer	Debris: Build
Light Fighters (S)	3 minutes	9	3
Heavy Fighters (S)	5 minutes	15	5
Very Heavy Fighters (S)	5 minutes	15	5
Super Heavy Fighters (S)	5 minutes	15	5
Bombers (S)	5 minutes	15	5
Freighters (S)	5 minutes	15	5
Gunboats (M)	10 minutes	30	10
Transports (M)	10 minutes	30	10
Liners (M)	10 minutes	30	10
Other	7 minutes	21	7

TEMPLATE Rebuild

TEMPLATE Reverse-Engineering 09 Light Fighters

TEMPLATE Reverse-Engineering 15 Snubs and Freighters

TEMPLATE Reverse-Engineering 21 Other

TEMPLATE Reverse-Engineering 30 Gunboats and Transports

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Sombs - 11-20-2016

Bump! When there is no feedback, I'm going to roll with it the way it is soon.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Swallow - 11-20-2016

How about to code this into a simple excel table, or sort of?
Something like a very simple additional application.
I have thought of this as of a "capital ship management sheet", to roleplay different processess and affairs going on your ship.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Sombs - 11-20-2016

What do you mean? Like, turning it into something Eve/oGame-like?

Aside from that, I'm terrible with Excel. ^^

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Foxglove - 11-20-2016

To be fair, I believe everything pertinent to the topic has been said already. It is an improvement that you desisted from capital ships, as I actually agreed that those were a bit other the top, and the raise in individual debris is more reasonable, given that a ship is supposed to be utterly destroyed after a fight, one would assume. Honestly, this is as far as I can go with commentary. I don't agree with some of the standpoint here that "it only happened if everyone agrees that it did", but I do agree that it is nonsensical for capital ships to be burned like nothing in Magellan each time the Royal Navy and the Liberty Navy fight. A common ground has to be found where people can't just decline to acknowledge something they participated in (because that's powergaming as well, guys (!)) and keeping a measure of sense in what you're doing, and this is why I believe all that was needed to make the first attempt perfect was to remove the capital ships from the list. The fact that you went beyond and raised the number of debris plus a ranking for salvaging ships wasn't strictly what I would've described as important, though it's a nice bonus.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Swallow - 11-20-2016

Well, a table with one sheet for logging your progress, like what where when and how much, adding screenshot links etc.
Then another sheet that takes this data through calculations and time limitations, and a sheet for nice output data with fancy progress and resource charts, that will tell you what can you build, out of whos wrecks, in what time, what would the expenses be and so on.

Maybe I am overestimating sheet possibilities, but this is what could be done to ease your management.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Sombs - 11-20-2016

That sounds interesting, but as I said, I'm not very good with excel and programming that would be a pain in the butt for me. I think I'd rather stick with the forum-work and have it open to all eyes for the best-possible transparency. Not that I'd want to bump the thread every time I had logged, but via editing.

But you added something I forgot to mention in the write-up and that's good: The time limitations. Like I did before with the building process, I will add progression time bars for the reverse-engineering and the restoration process. Like, restoring a fighter will take three days where the peeps of the ship can't do anything else. So I have to queue things here - not that I think that would happen soon.

RE: Notice on the Salvaging Service - Arbs - 11-20-2016

I'm not exactly sure what you intend to do with this. Will I be seeing anyone that can get their hands on the blackmarket flying guardians and -defiants-? Or happen to see some outcasts flying a bastet and a manta? Just because you could screenshot a few blue messages? Is this something about producing SRPs in series?

You really should take a look at Omicega's last paragraph. Yes. You don't need any oorp permission to tractor bots/bats/ammo, and that's why player ships only drop ammo and regens and NPCs only drop silver niobium or scrap metal - and not ship parts. When you're overstepping into something which belongs to a faction, it does create a problem and as a faction leader, I don't think I'm any inclined to accept that. And that's where the hundreds of questions come about how will you do this/that, which usually end up with some arguing, maybe drama, and with borderline or not powergame-ish responses about things not part of game mechanics like refurbishing ships of different military technologies, in your case.