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+--- Thread: Developments of the Bretonian Region (/showthread.php?tid=18972)
Developments of the Bretonian Region - BaconSoda - 04-08-2009
' Wrote:I have nothing against updates to Bretonia, and may do some myself eventually. But please stick to stuff that makes sense. Furthermore, Cambridge holds a huge interest to Mollies. As Blodo said, its the breadbasket and target of countless Corsair attacks. On top of that is the trade going towards Rheinland through the Omegas (the jump hole and gates to it being near the Molly base for a reason). And as if we need any more reason, Cambridge is also where IMG's Bretonian-core base, Cardiff, is located. IMG threaten the Mollys, being miners also working in Dublin. The Mollys want those fields to themselves, so IMG has made itself into a target for them.
Have I missed something really important? The Mollys don't give any hoots about the IMG, and should probably like them because they, you know, indirectly supply them off the Hood, as they did in vanilla, unless I missed something...
Furthermore, the fact that it is the site of major Corsair attacks makes the construction of a base there, well, laughable, at best. The Corsairs might not control the entirety of Cambridge, but name one other pirate faction in that field in 4.84. That's right, you can't. The Corsairs are the only pirate faction in Cambridge, and, if we're reading the news articles, they're on the offensive against the Outcast allies, aside from the Hessians, who are being hit by Wilde. It makes almost no sense for the Mollys to be able to build a base there. In fact, if you'd like to argue that they can, look at your arguments from Iverness and the Rogues.
' Wrote:Um, I'd like to see Mollys and IMG back to being reasonably friendly.
After all, they need someone to fence their goods besides Junkers.
*Agrees and wonders when that was changed*
' Wrote:I still think Edinburgh should remain almost exclusively Gaian playground. Just like there is no Gaian presence in Dublin.
Oh and on the subject of new systems: Bretonia does need some new ones. Maybe even some empty ones that serve as not much more than a highway. But either way it could use some. Could draw up a plan for a new system with a Gateway shipyard in it.
Gateway Shipyard is a little off, don't you think? We're the underdogs, still, and though we might be coming up quickly, I would expect some 70% of government interests be in the hands of BowEx, and those that are given to Gateway nothing but domestic.
' Wrote:Hardly. Omega-3 is not Corsair territory, not even close. It's Bretonian occupied, containing both Hessians and Corsairs. Certainly not Corsair dominated. The Omega-3 side of the O-3 -> Cambridge jump hole is surrounded by Hessian NPCs and not Corsair ones. That provides a good platform for the future storyline development of Hessian - Molly contact.
Alternating spawns does not mean surrounded. Furthermore, why exactly do the Mollys, who only want to liberate Dublin, want to have contact with the Hessians, who have goals nothing short of piracy and revenge against Daumann and Kruger? I think something like the Outcast-Hessian and Outcast-Molly alliance argument is being played in here. The Mollys and Hessians shouldn't care much about each other, they don't have much of a mutual interest.
' Wrote:Also, the reason Mollys would be concerned with Cambridge is because it is an attractive target for terrorism. Imagine how they could spook the Bretonian government if they threatened to MOX bomb Planet Cambridge or something.
And foreign VIPs and Tourists aren't? I would think that kidnapping people on the way to the Shetland would be easier for the Mollys than trying to MOX-bomb Cambridge, especially since the BPA are much worse fighters than the BAF, who the Mollys have been fighting since Graves was a privately owned station.
' Wrote:And while we're discussing what out to be where, please tell me what point there is in Mollys making a base in a system filled with nothing but enemies, and where Gaians are already terrorizing both Planetform and OS&C, meaning Mollys don't need to.
I think the same thing can be asked about Cambridge, only replace the words "and where Gaians are already terrorizing both Planetform and OS&C" with "And where the Corsairs hold the only pirate presence in the system and are attacking Arranmore from Omega-49 while brawling with Mollys in New London." Cambridge is even more hostile than Edinburgh, especially if the Gaians go neutral to the Mollys. It simply makes no sense for the Mollys to suddenly have a base where they had no NPC presence in the history of Discovery.
' Wrote:Furthermore, being only a single jump hole away from the Molly headquarters, what is the point in making another base when it takes a Molly a matter of minutes to travel from Arranmore to Edinburgh and then accomplish whatever goal he is trying to accomplish.. Making a Molly base in Edinburgh is redundant and is of no benefit whatsoever to the Mollys. However, Cambridge has a major route to Rheinland, invading Corsairs, BAF breadbasket, IMG, and a jump from a system containing the Red Hessians, who are the 'Mollys' of Rheinland.
How exactly does any of this really benefit the Mollys? They have food, they get it from the IMG and Junkers, they have more than enough Corsairs to fight, right next to their main base in their home system and when they pirate in New London, and they're friendly with the IMG as to not pirate them. What exactly is it they achieve by building a base? Losing more forces to defend their base?
' Wrote:That location is also much more secure from the standpoint of Kusari. If Kusari takes all of Leeds, Edinburgh is at great risk. Why chance a base in a system KNF might invade? Cambridge on the other hand is much safer, but with a jump hole unknown to KNF that connects to Leeds, where the Mollys would be able to strike at them.
Also, why would Mollys give a toss about Planetform, OS&C, or Gaians? If Gaians stay out of the way, I doubt Mollys care much about them one way or another.
Why risk building a base in the middle of hostile territory that no significant Molly force has ever occupied while your enemy is on the offensive?
Why would the Mollys care about the IMG or a road to Rheinland? It makes less sense for them to risk more, and gain almost nothing. Also, what use would it be to pirate on the Leeds --> Edinburgh Jump Gate's Trade Lane if there was absolutely no interest there? There must be something that the Mollys would want in Edinburgh if they were pirating there.
Think about this: an ice field is being mined in Edinburgh. What does that mean? Free water there. Piracy on supply convoys to Perth and Shetland is free food. Boom, there is their Cambridge goals, only, they can get them easily because it's so easy to build a base in the shadow of Ayr. Remember how people don't go on the other side of that planet? Who is saying the Mollys didn't build there before the Trade Lanes were built. Who says the Mollys really need a base in Edinburgh at all, for that matter? Why not just let them inhabit the Mining Station Glorious instead, then they could still raid Edinburgh, and have a backup base to Arranmore should the Corsairs gain a foothold in Dublin. But, then again, it's right next door to Arranmore. Why would someone build stations so close to each other? It's not like BMM has Thames one jump away from Birmingham. Why not just mine things in Manchester and store it on Thames? It's only one jump away...
Developments of the Bretonian Region - Blodo - 04-08-2009
' Wrote:Have I missed something really important? The Mollys don't give any hoots about the IMG, and should probably like them because they, you know, indirectly supply them off the Hood, as they did in vanilla, unless I missed something...1. The Mollys have their NPCs in Cambridge by the Leeds jump hole and in the asteroid field adjacent to it (so yes they do actually have a presence there). The Hessians have their NPCs by the Cambridge jump hole in O-3. I'd say that area of Cambridge is relatively safe...
Furthermore, the fact that it is the site of major Corsair attacks makes the construction of a base there, well, laughable, at best. The Corsairs might not control the entirety of Cambridge, but name one other pirate faction in that field in 4.84. That's right, you can't. The Corsairs are the only pirate faction in Cambridge, and, if we're reading the news articles, they're on the offensive against the Outcast allies, aside from the Hessians, who are being hit by Wilde. It makes almost no sense for the Mollys to be able to build a base there. In fact, if you'd like to argue that they can, look at your arguments from Iverness and the Rogues.
2. The Corsairs are also being hit hard by the Wilde apparently (according to news item anyways), though it's not being reflected in game in any way for either the Corsairs or Hessians so...
3. The Hessians are going to expand to Cambridge soon themselves, so say rumours on a fair few bases. That would provide an even bigger basis for coordinated Hessian-Molly attacks against Corsairs there.
Quote:Alternating spawns does not mean surrounded. Furthermore, why exactly do the Mollys, who only want to liberate Dublin, want to have contact with the Hessians, who have goals nothing short of piracy and revenge against Daumann and Kruger? I think something like the Outcast-Hessian and Outcast-Molly alliance argument is being played in here. The Mollys and Hessians shouldn't care much about each other, they don't have much of a mutual interest.According to what Kuraine posted in the other thread, the Hessians and Mollys will be in contact soon enough. As to why Mollys would want any contact with the Hessians: maybe the fact that the Mollys have to fend off a massive Corsair invasion of Dublin and the Hessians are capable of helping them on that front by coordinating their attacks on the Corsair path to Dublin? I'd put increased Hessian presence in Omega-47 as pretty important to the Mollys, and say that Hessians would rather have the Corsairs gone from Omega-49 as well...
Quote:Think about this: an ice field is being mined in Edinburgh. What does that mean? Free water there. Piracy on supply convoys to Perth and Shetland is free food. Boom, there is their Cambridge goals, only, they can get them easily because it's so easy to build a base in the shadow of Ayr. Remember how people don't go on the other side of that planet? Who is saying the Mollys didn't build there before the Trade Lanes were built. Who says the Mollys really need a base in Edinburgh at all, for that matter? Why not just let them inhabit the Mining Station Glorious instead, then they could still raid Edinburgh, and have a backup base to Arranmore should the Corsairs gain a foothold in Dublin. But, then again, it's right next door to Arranmore. Why would someone build stations so close to each other? It's not like BMM has Thames one jump away from Birmingham. Why not just mine things in Manchester and store it on Thames? It's only one jump away...Well... Mollys already have a base in an ice field. Taypord Base in Dundee. Gaia isn't really exploited for food, and nothing the Mollys would do against it would bother the Bretonian government much. It would rather enrage the Gaians against the Mollys instead.
Ayr is being terraformed by Planetform, and there is a Planetform base in its orbit. Hardly a place for a Molly station.
I'd say just leave Edinburgh to the Gaians... There's a better basis for a non-aggression pact that way, without their forces having to bump shoulders in a place that already is fairly crowded.
Developments of the Bretonian Region - bluntpencil2001 - 04-08-2009
Blodo for Prime Minister!
The man has it right, on all counts.
Developments of the Bretonian Region - pbrione - 04-08-2009
Actually I agree with Baconsoda - the mollies aren't interested in territory outside of Dublin - they wouldn't need an alliance with the hessians to keep back the corsairs from cambridge if they weren't in cambridge in the first place, which would let them concentrate on fighting off corsairs in Dublin rather than creating a new position just for the sake of defending it.
Their only use for bases outside Dublin is to launch raids against BMM and Bretonian corporations. Well, they can't do that in Cambridge because there IS no BMM or Bret Corporate presence in the system, at all. The only corporation there is the IMG, who as been pointed out are neutral to the mollies.
Whereas in Edinburgh, their base would be in a field with a BMM base right on the edge of it, perfect for fighting their no.1 enemy BMM, plus Planetform, Bowex and Gateway all in the system - every Bret corporation instead of the 0 in Cambridge; lots of choice targets in Edinburgh to attack, whilst in Cambridge they would be constantly on the defensive, nothing to attack, trying with futility to fend off corsairs and BAF.
Developments of the Bretonian Region - Marburg - 04-08-2009
My questions:
Why would the Gaians let the Mollys even think about building a station in their home turf? Possible future neutrality aside, you cannot put 2 alpha dogs in the same pin, else they spend their time with territorial pissings & eventually rip each others throats out.
The Brets getting busy in Edin means they have to constantly fight off the Gaians (& they would without a doubt, go completely rabid) & be more than a massive drain on the bret war effort, the 2-front fighting probably resulting in the loss of Leeds & eventually making Edin into a massive warzone while they get the everlovin snot beat out of them in one place from multiple enemies. Is it worth the risk?
& a hole directly into Orkney? while the BAF 'claim ownership' of Orkney? Why would Bretonia get access to another house without a bufferzone, when all the other houses have one between them?
Developments of the Bretonian Region - Unseelie - 04-08-2009
I don't think the Gaians would let the Mollies put a base there. I don't think they'd be able to stop a concerted effort, either. The Mollies have a fleet. Gunboats, perhaps destroyers. They've multiple stations, wealth, and have fought the BAF to a standstill for...how long since the founders day revolt? Gaians are great. They're great because they're underdogs, not alphas.
And the Gaians going rabid? Again, they're not that big, and besides, right now, the Gaians are doing what? Laying in supplies for the winter? They can only go rabid for a short period of time without collapsing, same any group. They're not a huge group, either. And might I say, Bretonia is -already- fighting a four front war, against the Corsairs, the Kusari, the Mollies, and the Gaians... Cambridge is a front, Leeds is a front, Tau is a front, Dublin is a front...
I'm not at all convinced the Gaians going berserk is such a horrible thing. In the scale of things, the Gaians isn't a huge faction. Its not very big when compared to the Mollies, and its certainly not very big when compared to Bretonia.
Have the Gaians changed anything, ever? I'm sorry, Marburg, they're not so powerful.
As a bordersystem, I might suggest the 'borderworlds' of Gallia...and that a gate is more likely to open up trade than the BAF claiming the system. If you are suggesting Bretonia lose Orkney, simply because a new house is nearby...I'd suggest rather the opposite would happen. They'd grab it up, what once was a backwater world. This route, to Orkney, from Edinburgh, bypasses the Guard system which has so recently become one of the main conduits...
You ask why they would get the access without the buffer, like they're getting something great out of it. Buffers happen, or they don't. They're natural occurrences which don't make too much sense in the context of nations and Empires....and the two great Empires in this game? The don't have buffer zones between them. Why should this new place get any different treatment?
Developments of the Bretonian Region - bluntpencil2001 - 04-08-2009
' Wrote:Actually I agree with Baconsoda - the mollies aren't interested in territory outside of Dublin - they wouldn't need an alliance with the hessians to keep back the corsairs from cambridge if they weren't in cambridge in the first place, which would let them concentrate on fighting off corsairs in Dublin rather than creating a new position just for the sake of defending it.Um, if the Corsairs are sandwiched between Mollys and Hessians in the Omegas, they're more likely to pull out of Dublin.
Also, it's a blood feud. Thermonuking Cork ring any bells?
Besides, the Hessians and Mollys were founded in almost the exact same fashion, the events which caused both to come into existence also played their part in the formation of the IMG, who get on okay with both groups, and are made up of both Dubliners and Rheinlanders.
Also they both have to hawk their contraband to someone. Open up markets for gold, blood diamonds and Guinness, much like the Outcasts and Corsairs are looking to expand on their smuggling rings.
Developments of the Bretonian Region - Friday - 04-08-2009
The Gaian's 'success' wont be military - it will be political. As people get tired of the war, they will start to realise just how much they are losing.
The Green Front should really be pushing for a negotiated end to the war - before Gaia gets caught in the crossfire.
As is often said by Gaian characters online.
"The war is distracting the people from the REAL issues!"
"People dont care about nature when they are only concerned with killing each other."
"During war, Nature becomes just another resource in the war effort."
Developments of the Bretonian Region - Unseelie - 04-08-2009
Ok, the rash of development in Edinburgh, yes, will upset the Gaians. I'm not sure I understand why. We're avoiding the bloody planet. And it is that, a rash of development, even though we only want to put up, first mod(year) inoperable lane projects and Gates, ad little depot stations. I want to put it all down, and have -something- there, because I'm not at all convinced 87(assuming we don't get this into 85, which I think is unlikely...) won't come before I graduate. I'm not convinced I'll ever even see this bit of development on the server, even if it does get approved. I'm more than a little defensive of a project that Bretonia could lose, for all I know. But its an optimistic project, in an empire getting overrun. Its looking forward to possible trade with the new house, and its a brilliant plan for bringing activity to a beautiful, empty system. When it was suggested that the Gaians might halt it..I first wondered if I could give them a base, or make it bigger, and that would placate them.
People suggest 49, and they suggest omega 50, salisbury, Core systems, or rear systems, to develop...I'm sick and tired of running. Edinburgh already has a military presence, or at least military support, flowing through it, to Dundee, and to Tau. Thats a large presence, that.
I stand by the points: the Gaians are not very large, duplicitous and traitorous Brets they might be. I do think they could slow us down, but I don't think they'd stop us. I seriously doubt they could stop us and the mollies...I'm not even sure why they'd try. We're avoiding their planet. The terraforming is nearly done on Ayr...
How large is the green front? It has never seemed like a large party. A fringe party, with a weird plank...Suing for peace? Sure. They might. But lets not forget that Bretonia is supposed to mirror Victorian Brittian. The Victorian Empire, surrender? Even when the wolf is on its door? I rather think not.
The Hessians, I thought, had turned their backs on their beginnings, aside from the rather small RHA group, and were ruthless thugs, for the most part, rather than revolutionary oppressed miners.
Developments of the Bretonian Region - bluntpencil2001 - 04-08-2009
' Wrote:The Hessians, I thought, had turned their backs on their beginnings, aside from the rather small RHA group, and were ruthless thugs, for the most part, rather than revolutionary oppressed miners.Same as the Mollys.