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+--- Thread: Admin Notice : Faction Warned (/showthread.php?tid=24901)
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Elsdragon - 08-19-2009
@ noobl33t: Maybe I will, but perhaps it would be better adressed over skype?
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Drake - 08-19-2009
Quote:Privateering is really something completely different than attacking someone completely neutral who isn't directly supporting your allies.Uhm, first, should that be 'supporting your enemies' rather than 'supporting your allies'?
Second, if it is 'supporting your enemies', the Zoners do directly support our enemies (Corsairs, I'm not talking about the Zoners who haul to Kusari, though they certainly exist).
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Doc Holliday - 08-19-2009
' Wrote:Uhm, first, should that be 'supporting your enemies' rather than 'supporting your allies'?
Second, if it is 'supporting your enemies', the Zoners do directly support our enemies (Corsairs, I'm not talking about the Zoners who haul to Kusari, though they certainly exist).
Drake, this was some false intel that was started some time ago. So Zoners pass through Kusari en route to Ames research via the Tau systems. I do it often but I don't stop in Kusari for trade yet you and Blunt have decided that I'm trading there. It's a route, NOT a trade stop. We run deuterium to Ames research so that's one falsehood that Blunt started awhile back.
Another was that the Corsairs are leading raids out of O49. Again, not true. Most of the Corsair raids come from Cambridge where the JH to Omega 5 is. It's shorter, there's more there and they don't have to contend with Mollies on their way through Dublin.
And what is so often forgotten, as it was forced RP, the Bretonian colony of Port Jackson on Gran Canaria. As the character Dr. John Holliday lives there, he has taken it upon himself to assist them yet he is branded a bad guy because of a Corsair colony on Canaria, one that was also RP'd. Until players showed up in space and started shooting each other up, things there were relatively peaceful.
And Blunt, I am guilty about the Cambridge Medical RP. It fit what I was trying to build. It isn't Zoner as some may say but Doc likes to spend his time there. I don't see that as a problem. Of all the things Doc Holliday does, the medical aspect is my personal favorite RP.
And finally, this whole Zoner/QCP thing and diplomacy. Um...we tried that. It didn't work. Now if people want to sit down and try again, Zoners are willing to. Mal is gone now and somehow TAZ has been handed to me. Between that and real life, I've got a lot to figure out. Some folks are just going to have to be patient with TAZ. Mal really WAS discordian, I am trying to RP it so it's a big learning curve for me right now.
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Dieter Schprokets - 08-19-2009
I have 4 concerns with the QCP targetting Zoners.
1) It took the Zoner players with their pants down. It is not considered sportsmanlike to just decide that the NPC faction other players represent is your enemy, and then shooting those players, without talking to them first about how its gonna go down. You like surprises, but most people don't, and they get upset. You are smart enough to have anticipated that reaction, even an overreaction.
2) I understand your RP about Zoners letting Corsairs in the back door. I get that. However, infocards, and the npc diplomacies do not govern the way the game is played. They exist as a backstory to an evolving RP which real PLAYERS write. Maybe the NPC Zoners let the Corsairs in the back door, but the faction players have never shown an inkling to anything other than general neutrality, with occasional grr woof woofery when their turf was infringed. And players and their efforts matter more. You decided that Zoners made Cork possible, and maybe in the mod, that's true. But the TAZ, for instance, have never been a party to standing by and watching genocide happen. A zoner is not a zoner is not a zoner. Infocards take a backseat to actual players activities.
This is similar to another point you tried to make a while ago. NPC faction diplomacy-wise, BAF should hate Outcasts. The official faction BAF policy to OC, is neutrality. "The Enemy of my Enemy" and all that. What the players decided governs over infocards and npc faction diplomacy, within reason. There is a minor contradiction with the infocard. I, for one, am fine with that.
Bottom Line, TAZ and other Zoners should decide their diplomacy, (as long as it is generally consistent with the mod); Not other players, not even ones acting in accordance with various mod infocards etc.
3) The Zoner infocard:
ENEMIES:
None
Zoners are a diverse group of individuals who, for various reasons, have decided to live in the wild and unregulated systems outside colonial control. Over time the Zoners have evolved into an influential and rich faction that invests a lot into deep space exploration, much like The Order. When The Order allied with Corsairs, Zoner relations with the Outcasts became no less tense than with the Corsairs. However, the Zoners of Omicron Theta felt they were powerful enough to defend themselves from both factions and, to this day, skilfully use the antagonism between Outcasts and Corsairs for their own benefit.
I don't see anything about a pro Corsair stance there. ENEMIES : None. Kinda stands out, doesn't it?
4) This is not what the Privateer ID is for. You aren't guardians of Bretonia in all places against all foes. You are pirates licenced by the Crown to kill and steal from those factions with which Bretonia is at war. Bretonia is not at war with the Zoners. End of story.
The above is not "The Admin" position, it summarizes my position, as well as I can. Kinda tired ATM.
The warning you got was an attempt to defuse an unhappy situation, under time constraints, with imperfect information. The Admin's are still discussing all this, much like you guys are.
For my part, I'd give real money if it could get resolved, in-RP, with concessions from both sides.
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - DAnvilFan - 08-19-2009
I'm not really sure that there is a way to resolve this. Maybe it doesn't need to.
It seems evident that Andrew and his band of merry gentlemen wish to hunt Zoners. So be it.
However, I would appreciate it if the QCP opened a diplomatic channel with the CoZ. I think that you may be surprised that diplomacy with the Zoners may get you farther than fragging their ships.
EDIT: I also don't think that the Zoners would mind if you came to O-49 and killed as many Corsairs as you like as long as you stay out of the FNZone. In fact, if Andrew and his gang had done this, there would be no problems with QCP chilling in O-49.
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Dieter Schprokets - 08-19-2009
' Wrote:I'm not really sure that there is a way to resolve this.
I'm sure there is.
Creative people on both sides of the fence.
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Drake - 08-19-2009
' Wrote:Bottom Line, TAZ and other Zoners should decide their diplomacy, (as long as it is generally consistent with the mod); Not other players, not even ones acting in accordance with various mod infocards etc.Likewise, the QCP should decide their own diplomacy, as long as it's consistent with the mod. Being hostile (or very unfriendly) to a faction who has regular amicable dealings with the Corsairs is definitely consistent.
The 'Enemies: None' on the Zoner infocard only applies to NPC factions, it isn't a shield to hide behind.
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Blodo - 08-19-2009
' Wrote:Drake, this was some false intel that was started some time ago. So Zoners pass through Kusari en route to Ames research via the Tau systems. I do it often but I don't stop in Kusari for trade yet you and Blunt have decided that I'm trading there. It's a route, NOT a trade stop. We run deuterium to Ames research so that's one falsehood that Blunt started awhile back.Yes, however you miss the fact how Privateers operate in Kusari. The point is to halt as much traffic as possible, make them take some other route. They don't care if you stop on a Kusari or not, trading through Kusari means you're a target, if you can figure it out and go through Liberty instead then the QCP reached their goal.
Quote:Another was that the Corsairs are leading raids out of O49. Again, not true. Most of the Corsair raids come from Cambridge where the JH to Omega 5 is. It's shorter, there's more there and they don't have to contend with Mollies on their way through Dublin.This is also a reply to Dieter's point no. 2. Tons of Corsair NPCs at the JH inboth O-49 and Dublin. I know, this is infocards knowledge, however infocards are as much part of the RP as player RP. The precedent was set for this when the Order was denied rights to police their indies attacking Liberty Navy.
But aside from talking rules here, it's not just about Corsairs basing themselves off of Gran Canaria. It's also as Grimly pointed out an attack on Zoners as the suppliers of the Corsairs. This is knowledge backed by tens of rumours, quite a few infocards and the actions of the players ingame, it is simply reality. It's also knowledge that the QCP as a rogue faction would not need to officially confirm to themselves in order to begin operations, as in the public eye they are totally autonomous and not tied to any lawful Bretonian faction.
Quote:4) This is not what the Privateer ID is for. You aren't guardians of Bretonia in all places against all foes. You are pirates licenced by the Crown to kill and steal from those factions with which Bretonia is at war. Bretonia is not at war with the Zoners. End of story.However Bretonia is at war with the Corsairs. And as Grimly pointed out in his post a page back, the Corsairs rely on the Zoners by a long shot. This is a case of war by proxy, and I'd say it's perfectly plausible. In RP you just can't put a finger on what QCP is doing, because the motivation is clear: Zoners are helping the enemies of Bretonia. They might be helping its allies too, but that's irrelevant to the QCP, who are by all means a rogue faction.
Regardless of that, I am not sure how many times yet can it be explained how the QCP work or what they are. The stance on this situation is obviously divided, now what I would suggest is to simply let this play out in roleplay. After all, I wouldn't consider QCP disrupting server gameplay, where whenever they raid omega-49 99% of the time there is a much bigger zoner/corsair fleet waiting there for them. So the zoners are more than capable of defending themselves. Neither is there any camping involved by either party. So in all actuality I would personally let this play out now that it has begun. The members of at least one of the Zoner factions seem to agree as evidenced by Bluespawn's post. The question here is whether the admins believe that it is going to be a liability or not...
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Elsdragon - 08-19-2009
PLease rewrite the statement dieter, you worded it in a trainwreck fasion
Admin Notice : Faction Warned - Dieter Schprokets - 08-19-2009
' Wrote:PLease rewrite the statement dieter, you worded it in a trainwreck fasion
My writing is fine, sir.
:)
I'm going to suggest some common starting grounds for negotiation.
I'm not being an Admin here, just a player.
1) Zoners i/c TAZ no longer want to be pirated by QCP. QCP has better things to do, in Kusari, for instance, and the Taus.
2) QCP no longer want Corsairs hiding behind Zoner's backs (NFZ)
3) Zoners do not like people using the NFZ as a shield to pirate with impunity, last I talked to them. That's not the reason for the NFZ.
What about a Zoner thread, "Reporting : No Fire Zone Abusers".
It could be used as a registry for Corsairs (or other pirates) that simply use FP's to base attacks out of, then run back to, and say 'nanananana-naaa'
Non-zoners post in there "Pirate X is hitting Cambridge, and running back to FP1, repeatedly, here is the evidence"
Zoners say "Yep, that aint kosher, his protection is revoked. Go get 'im. Or hell, we will."
That particular pirate would no longer be protected by the NFZ. Which protection he no longer deserves, in the Zoners eyes, nor the non-Zoners.