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+--- Thread: GB balancing for 4.87 (/showthread.php?tid=91151)
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Ursus - 12-17-2012
Yeah nerfing dps to 50% sounds like the worst option of the lot. NOBODY will use them for anything, so just delete them instead and get it over with. Will Basics be destroyed too? I assume so or else everybody will just use those instead of house turrets. What about Solaris? They are essentially the same DPS as basics and some of the lower house turrets--2700 for Solaris vs 2800 for Basics--with only slight increase in power usage. If the Sollies arent nerfed then everybody will use those since they are the same power as basics. If they ARE nerfed then gunboats become completely useless against snubs. Not to mention this really screws over Rheinland and Bretonia and the other factions that depend on very-high-damage turrets to balance for size and/or arcs. Worst option of the lot.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - JIVA - 12-17-2012
lets just assume that what people wrote here to be true for a second.
- what they said is that gunboats with TS and TZ require "no skill" - and are practicly "i-win-ships" vs. snubs
lets then cut the dps they do in half - provided they will still defeat the regeneration rate of snub shields, which they will.... (easily even with 50% dps )
so if what people SAID was TRUE - then all it will do it give the snubs around twice the time to survive until the inevitable death, cause it does not change the "in-win" ship - it just increases the duration of their demise.
of course only - if people stated the truth
also - naturally, other sustained damage guns would be adjusted, too - otherwise, whats the point.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Ursus - 12-17-2012
(12-17-2012, 10:41 PM)Cheshire Wrote: so if what people SAID was TRUE - then all it will do it give the snubs around twice the time to survive until the inevitable death, cause it does not change the "in-win" ship - it just increases the duration of their demise.Jinx, thruster speed difference means that snubs only die if they stay around. This is why a group of 3 snubs can kill a gunboat now, they can weave in and out of danger zone, thrusting to shield run every few seconds. IOW, gunboats are point defense, area-denial, DO NOT STAY NEAR ME. Twice as long to kill means the snubbies can hang around the gunboat twice as long before they have to shield run. IOW the snubs can shoot at the target for twice as long. Gunboat vs 2 is stupid fight in that scenario, snubs will never die since they can just up and leave with twice the flex time.
The only way you can balance that back to the design intention is to increase thruster speed on the gunboat so it can chase the snubs that are shield-running.
Otherwise GBs will only be useful for solo-killing cargo ships, or you and a buddy teaming up on a newbie cruiser.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - JIVA - 12-17-2012
thats right - and due to shield regen - they ll even be longer than twice as long.
however - the way people describe it - the appearence of a gunboat "ruins" their fun .... even players claiming to fly gunboats say the utmost ease of their "win buttons" ruins it for them
that kind of implies that they "do their job" in a much shorter time than one might consider appropriate or reasonable ... and also with a lot less skill ( whatever the pros of the community consider a reasonable skill level )
but now you say that taking twice as long makes them useless.
thats a big step from being win machines to utterly useless by just doubling their kill time ( not even touching their durability in combat )
so - yes, i am a bit at a loss about the absulte harshness of judgement of the GB class effectiveness as decribed in that thread
from godly to pointless just by doubling their kill time.
mind you, in my opinion - gunboats are pretty much what they are meant to be right now. if the gunboats are the stone, the snubs are the scissors and the cruisers are the papers. - with that concept it does indeed take less skill for the stone vs. the scissors - as is the intention.
also - like blodo wrote ( or maybe wanted to write )
the intention is to promote the other weapons. - if the basic turrets are the same DPS ... but at a lot less skill requirement than - lets say... 3 razors. - the nerfing of the basics means that one can still apply the same DPS like 4.86 ... but not with basics anymore...
now you need to take 3 razors and kill them quick in the old 4.85 manner ( chase view i guess ) - or you take the nerf ... mount basics ... use a lot "less skill" as so many of you guys say... at the cost of taking more than twice as long.
its a choice that sounds reasonable to me, even if i think it does not need a change.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Veygaar - 12-18-2012
Remove zoom, make guys have to aim, they still have the possibility to be anti gank GB pilots, but they then need the skill.
I wont mind the DSP decrease, but I think removing zoom is a better option. To claim that to aim is "fighting interface" is dumb, if that is true, give fighters zoom too so they can have auto aim aswell. I have to hard a time "fighting the fighter interface" and need easier aim. kthx
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Stealthsultn - 12-18-2012
Quote:Remove zoom, make guys have to aim, they still have the possibility to be anti gank GB pilots, but they then need the skill.
I wont mind the DSP decrease, but I think removing zoom is a better option. To claim that to aim is "fighting interface" is dumb, if that is true, give fighters zoom too so they can have auto aim aswell. I have to hard a time "fighting the fighter interface" and need easier aim. kthx
Yep, this would be a good solution, maybe with a small 25% dmg nerf.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Omicron - 12-18-2012
Am I the only one who cant fight on gunboat while zoomed out?
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Ursus - 12-18-2012
(12-17-2012, 10:56 PM)Cheshire Wrote: thats a big step from being win machines to utterly useless by just doubling their kill time ( not even touching their durability in combat )If the purpose of gunboats was to actually kill snubs, then 1 gunboat vs 2-3 snubs should be 50-50 chance. Right now its a little better than that, maybe 1 vs 3-4 snubs if the fighters are bad or dont have good gear. But, between thrusters and bomber cloaks, a gunboat has very little chance of running down a snub that does not want to stay and fight, and he cant outrun them so he has to wait for them to flee first. Practical result is that gunboat vs 2-3 snubs is 0-0 chance, never winning but also never losing (just talking about direct snub combat here), all he can do is make them leave the area.
If the DPS is cut in half the snubs can stay and attack the target for twice as long. What is the point then? Gunboat cannot kill them when they stay in range and cannot run them down either? What is the purpose?
Gunboats also fight other ships, including other gunboats, transports, and cruisers. Gunboat vs gunboat fight already takes a long time and will be impossible with 50% DPS nerf. Gunboat vs btrans or liner with 50% DPS nerf to all turrets (which I assume includes cerbs?) will not be happening either. Maybe you can do it in pairs, with a combination of missiles and cerbs or something, but generally you are talking about cargo ship having twice the flee distance, gunboat fights taking 10 minutes, etc.
Now, look at 1 cruiser vs 2 bombers. That is actually close to 50-50 kill rate, for equal skill. Cruiser turrets have very high DPS, yes? Munition speed and rotation speed make all the difference there, yet they are still able to wallop everything that moves slow. You could do the same thing to gunboats, keep the ship slow, and they will still serve the same purpose but it will bring the success rate down a little bit. That's all it needs, a small adjustment to gunboat vs snubs.
Let's see, current cerbs are 900 m/s for 4,600 DPS, current sollies are 1600 m/s for 2,700 DPS, so that would put middle ground at 1250 m/s for 3,650 DPS. Right now the hi-lo average for house turrets is 1450 m/s at 3,050 DPS. They are already weak, but they are also fast--just slow them down so you miss small targets more, problem solved and you didnt ruin all the other combat encounters.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Veygaar - 12-18-2012
Ursus, Cerbs aren't getting nerfed. Neither are Pulse/Razor. I've yet to hear about Solaris.
RE: GB balancing for 4.87 - Ursus - 12-18-2012
Jinx just said all the constant-damage turrets were getting nerfed.
If they dont nerf solaris then this just means they are deleting faction turrets, since everybody will be using solaris tomorrow. Sucks for Rheinland and Bret etc, otherwise same DPS as basics now.