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+--- Thread: My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. (/showthread.php?tid=9747)
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - Praetyre - 06-25-2008
' Wrote:The "faction" existed before the LSF or SA. They aren't "the" faction--even if they rp as if they are. If they wanted to rp that as a permanent thing, it should have been submitted to be formalized as a server rule.
Do you believe there are two Liberty Navies and Security Force's? If so, what are the entities we normally know as the LN and LSF in RP terms? And why are they called the Liberty Security Force and Liberty Navy if they aren't the intelligence branch of the Liberty Navy and the starfleet of House Liberty?
Furthermore, the admins approved and approve the existence of such unilaterally named factions. Case closed.
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - song - 06-25-2008
' Wrote:Do you believe there are two Liberty Navies and Security Force's? If so, what are the entities we normally know as the LN and LSF in RP terms? And why are they called the Liberty Security Force and Liberty Navy if they aren't the intelligence branch of the Liberty Navy and the starfleet of House Liberty?
I'll reply in character:
"This group of private ship owners calling themselves "the military" and claiming to represent "the government" have done so with no vote or authority from the people of this system and answer to no one but themselves. There need to be curbs on their power, true governmental regulation of their organization and a structure that imposes accountability to a democratic government authority above the authority they claim as their own--else we are but a military dictatorship--no matter how benign seeming it is." [If I were a citizen of Liberty]
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - Laowai - 06-25-2008
Angelfire:
I also read the debate (my flight out of sydney has been delayed by 12 hours and im now sitting in Sydney Airport with time on my hands... only 9 more hours to wait... ) and it was interesting.
My thoughts? - Obviously both types of player have a place on the server, that can be taken as granted. But i think whats missing from the debate, and perhaps a lot of whats being said about factions - indies here is that while what factions like the RM are doing in general restrictions, while in concept is not entirely wrong (Role play a military, excersize military control) and on the surface seem entirely reasonable whats not being said is the underlying ramifications of that; which i think are several.
The RM - through praeytr has stated pretty clearly where they stand on control of Rheinland military players. I.e - you cant be one, unless you're in the faction. What the faction has essentially done here is in effect said "there is no NPC Rheinland military faction, we are the Rheinland military". Thats an extraordinary amount of power to be handed over to a player clan..... Now i know those in support of the policy will say "So? they are military, thats what they do" but i believe this is missing the point - The clan has made the decision to not allow any, and i mean ANY other RM role play on the server, other their own, and that they approve of. No other faction has this much power, though i suspect there are a few that wouldnt mind it. I believe that the RM in this case are out of line in having these restrictions - the RM do not have an "RM" clan ID in the way that the SCRA, Phantoms, Keepers, AW do... and the fact that this "faction specific" ID is not there i think implies that total faction control over and NPC faction was never intended in the games developement.
So, in saying that, the server rules.. ID rules etc are overidden by a faction. It is the admins pertogative to agree with this of course, and Praetyr says some of them have, or at least, not objected.
If ever you were looking for an example of the power that factions have, there is one right there.
The question that was never asked in the debate was = IS it the case then that factions have the right to override server rules?
You see the implications of that.
As it stands - there are 2 or more sets of rules... the rules of the server, which you should read before you start to play, the rules of the factions.. which.. well, they arent really written down anywhere and it doesnt say in the server rules that they are manditory but well... they kinda are and you should also try and learn them as well, which you can do by trolling through hours of disjointed forum threads - you could argue there are a third set of rules, those that are a mix of the above two and given approval by an admin, somwhere... and then even perhaps a 4th set of rules - the ones that no one anywhere knows about but they must be ok because an admin didnt say it wasnt.....
Factions and Indies have issues, but the way i see a lot of this debate is this is a server rule issue and a server control issue. I am not for one instant saying the indies should be running the server, but neither should the factions - Indies should be allowed to fly what they like, play in any NPC faction they like, provided they respect other people's RP and work with the player factions in that area. Factions should see that they are simply a group of players who have chosen to RP together and should not try to control the RP and choices of players who do not wish to join them.
I believe factions such as the RM, while having exemplerary Role play, have over-reached the power allowed a faction, but can get away with it because of the mountainous "grey areas" that exist now in Disco's rule system. And indies now have so much vague versions of the rules to learn to fit in that is it any wonder new people just show up and say "huh??!"
The entire server rule and power structure needs to be re-written and reassessed in my opinion
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - Praetyre - 06-25-2008
' Wrote:I'll reply in character:
"This group of private ship owners calling themselves "the military" and claiming to represent "the government" have done so with no vote or authority from the people of this system and answer to no one but themselves. There need to be curbs on their power, true governmental regulation of their organization and a structure that imposes accountability to a democratic government authority above the authority they claim as their own--else we are but a military dictatorship--no matter how benign seeming it is."
Provide evidence these individuals are private and not agents of the Liberty government, and provide me the names of the leaders of the Liberty Navy and Liberty Security Force.
How about this, then, a petition to ban:
Military factions with unilateral names and ranks (e.g. Rheinland Military led by two Grosseadmirals and a Kanzler).
Ban these, and it's over, simple as that. But, the admins have not stepped in regarding this, so the only logical conclusion is that they are A. Incompetent in enforcing server rules B. Corrupt or C. Legitimately approved the RM (for example).
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - n00bl3t - 06-25-2008
' Wrote:I'll reply in character:
"This group of private ship owners calling themselves "the military" and claiming to represent "the government" have done so with no vote or authority from the people of this system and answer to no one but themselves. There need to be curbs on their power, true governmental regulation of their organization and a structure that imposes accountability to a democratic government authority above the authority they claim as their own--else we are but a military dictatorship--no matter how benign seeming it is." [If I were a citizen of Liberty]
Well that represents that fascism of Rheinland. But the democracy of Liberty?
Edit:
' Wrote:Provide evidence these individuals are private and not agents of the Liberty government, and provide me the names of the leaders of the Liberty Navy and Liberty Security Force.
Provide evidence that they are.
Typo corrected.
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - Praetyre - 06-25-2008
' Wrote:Well that represents that fascism oh Rheinland. But the democracy of Liberty?
Provide evidence that they are.
I think Liberty is a republic.
The burden of proof is on you to prove something called the Liberty Security Force headed over by a Director isn't the intelligence branch of the starfleet of House Liberty. Occam's Razor, as well.
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - chovynz - 06-25-2008
' Wrote:ARGH!
The "faction" existed before the LSF or SA. They aren't "the" faction--even if they rp as if they are. If they wanted to rp that as a permanent thing, it should have been submitted to be formalized as a server rule.
The point isn't, "Doesn't it make more sense that someone would run the military?", it's "Who decided they could run it?" They did.
All you are saying is, "Well I like the LSf and their structure so why don't you shove off and do something else if you can't agree with me?"
THAT is the problem.
You aren't just telling them, "Maybe you will like something else better" you are telling them "You are not allowed to play this then because you don't agree with my group".
That is the issue.
Oh my lordie. Ok. We have a problem here.
It is hardcoded into the FL mechanics in so many ways its not funny.
There is no Dynamic Economy.
There is no Dynamic Government. They do not give out any orders other than missions.
People wanted to play heads of state. That is good, why? because it brings the faction to life.
Without people the computer faction is dead.
There are factions that have been created to fill the void that the computer factions are.
These have Role played and are supported by the majority of this Disco community (AND THE ADMINS) for over 3 years. I joined some of the factions because I like to Role play as a team member. I understand
how "chain of command" works.
The issue here is not "me telling others to go jump", it is the Indies who do not want to play
within common sense of a military organisation. They are telling the player faction (which has already established itself, and has the support of the Admins (or the admins would not have allowed them to come into being), to go jump.
It's like a father who has grown up and bought his own house. The baby gets born or adopted into the
house. The baby doesn't like his room. He screams and yells. But the father has laid down the rules.
That is the baby's room. Until the baby has grown up a bit, it can not talk. Until later, the baby is dependant
on the father for nutrients. As a teenager, the baby can tell the father go jump, but it is still the fathers house.
It is the natural order of things. In a military organisation there MUST be heads. Those heads are real
people. Yes sometimes they make mistakes. But those people have decided to role play as the heads, and this community accepted it. You, Shigeo, and a few others are trying to bring down, or change to your own version, the factions that you want to be part of.
BUT IT IS NOT YOUR HOUSE.
If you seriously want to play an INDY then do it in a computer faction that supports independent thinking. Like the Junkers, or get a Privateer, or Freelancer ID.
Edit: If you are capable of taking orders within that structure then by all means join the factions that are military and in that structure.
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - tk9780 - 06-25-2008
If you take up a discovery group id badge then you should be willing to follow any reasonable request given by any appropriate ranking officers / leader.
If dont want to follow orders simply use a generic id badge.
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - song - 06-25-2008
Quote:The question that was never asked in the debate was = IS it the case then that factions have the right to override server rules? You see the implications of that....Factions and Indies have issues, but the way i see a lot of this debate is this is a server rule issue and a server control issue.
That is the point.
Quote: I am not for one instant saying the indies should be running the server, but neither should the factions
AMEN!
Quote:I believe factions such as the RM, while having exemplary Role play, have over-reached the power allowed a faction, but can get away with it because of the mountainous "grey areas" that exist now in Disco's rule system. And indies now have so much vague versions of the rules to learn to fit in that is it any wonder new people just show up and say "huh??!"
That's the primary reason for continuing to "argue" this--and "arguing" isn't helping the server either. The confusion hurts play and factions aren't eliminating the confusion for the most part--just profiting from it by filling the power vacuum.
Quote:The entire server rule and power structure needs to be re-written and reassessed in my opinion
Exactly. Only two things will solve this:
1) An outright official "admin decree".
or
2) A player referendum submitted to the admins who then approve or disapprove it.
What we all share in common is we do want structure--just not imposed by a group of players onto another.
Good post Laowai.
My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff. - Praetyre - 06-25-2008
As I said:
' Wrote:How about this, then, a petition to ban:
Military factions with unilateral names and ranks (e.g. Rheinland Military led by two Grosseadmirals and a Kanzler).
Ban these, and it's over, simple as that. But, the admins have not stepped in regarding this, so the only logical conclusion is that they are A. Incompetent in enforcing server rules B. Corrupt or C. Legitimately approved the RM (for example).