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+------ Thread: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) (/showthread.php?tid=103256)
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Thexare - 08-19-2013
(08-19-2013, 11:54 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: WordsYour opinion has been noted and filed appropriately. Anything else?
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Kazinsal - 08-20-2013
(08-19-2013, 11:55 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Not to be Mr. Negative, but while I appreciate all the hard work you put into it and I see that you truly care a lot about this, forgive me for asking what you will contribute with towards the server as a whole?
The same thing as anyone else who comes up with something new to roleplay: A new environment to the universe. Our own idea for something more than your average mercenary faction that has nothing seriously impacting on rolelay. Something more than your average band of thieves.
Quote:I mean you are trying to get the much coveted position of being plain pirates as well as being neutral to some very powerful lawfuls and having your own little empire. That position (excluding empire) is usually something that comes with a lot of strings attached, like it is the case of the Privateer or the GJ ID.I'm not sure where you're getting that from. We only pirate certain groups -- namely Rheinland and Gallic corps -- who are unappreciated by our neutrals and friendlies. We're limiting our piracy ZoI significantly from what we had as a simple pirate ID group. We're certainly not just plain pirates. That's not what we want to be either.
Quote:I could understand it if it was just a few snubs "flying under the radar" and negotiating this difficult diplomatic balance, but a fleet with caps and such, it seems a bit implausible doesn't it? What's stopping LN from seizing your Arbiter/Spyglass the moment you let your guard down, and pin some crime on you as justification? That would be dead-easy for them, why wouldn't they?We don't intend to wave the caps around, or use them for piracy and such activities. Just like the BHG|Core doesn't use their caps for hunting bounties.
What's stopping the LN is the fact that both sides enjoy roleplaying and the fun little treaties and stuff that result from it. We're not a threat to them. They accept that. It's a whole barrel of fun for the whole family!
Quote:Edit: What I mean is, how will it benefit me and other regular Joe players that you get a very powerful ID/diplomacy? Why should you have it other than because you really want it and put in a good effort? Forgive me for being blunt, I'm just curious how this works.
We haven't requested a powerful ID. We've requested one that's less powerful than our current one. And I don't see what you mean by powerful diplomacy. We've made amends with two houses -- three others (plus the Corsairs and their allies) still don't like us being alive.
Why should we have it? So we can actually reflect our choices, diplomacies, and limitations mechanically in-game. If you got shot by every LN and BAF indie in sight because "pirate id you die now engaging", you'd want to rectify that situation too.
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Chrome.Flare - 08-20-2013
(08-17-2013, 09:16 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: Chrome, I'm starting to think you personally have something against us, so spit it out already.
(08-17-2013, 09:16 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: I don't know what the hell you're talking about, or where you're getting your baseless arguments from, but that's bloody rich of you to be claiming we don't RP with anyone but ourselves.
(08-19-2013, 11:57 PM)Thexare Wrote:(08-19-2013, 11:54 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: WordsYour opinion has been noted and filed appropriately. Anything else?
So any person who dares to give you a truthful feedback you either ignore it,divert it from subject or just attack the person who post it
Very cute..why do you even reply than?
(08-17-2013, 09:16 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: We have extensive roleplaying over the past four and a half years, we've been official before, survived several faction direction changes --Direction changes?Sure thing..from unlawfully to lawfully..old members,total new members..
(08-17-2013, 09:16 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: Why wouldn't they? We're putting a buffer between their outpost and Liberty/Bretonia.
(08-19-2013, 11:46 PM)Savas Wrote: In addition to what Thex/Kaz said about diplomacy.
I feel that a Molly complaint over us shooting their base would not matter really that much. The Rogues and VR are practically neighbours and considering we're not trying to cut in or disrupt the cardi trade, slave trade, or other smuggling in Liberty not to mention the buffer we form between Fortaleza and easy access for Lib forces means that having us neutral or friendly is a much better deal than resetting us to simply please the Mollies who are a house away and are only really interested in taking over Dublin and shooting 'Sairs than much else.
Right..by allowing lawfulls and bhg/mercenary to go through your "house" unharmed and with your arms wide open;
While you kill every rogues,lane hackers,outcast,pirates in these systems,even when they undock..
(08-19-2013, 11:44 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: I have a question: What are the rules on piracy in magellan, kansas and humboldt?
whoever pirates there get's killed..pretty much..
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: We don't intend to wave the caps around, or use them for piracy and such activities. Just like the BHG|Core doesn't use their caps for hunting bounties.So..when it's convenient you use the past to your own advantage when it suits you and when it doesn't you just keep ignoring it,as in this case your group overused caps in past to pirate sirius wide..
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: The same thing as anyone else who comes up with something new to roleplay: A new environment to the universe. Our own idea for something more than your average mercenary faction that has nothing seriously impacting on roleplay. Something more than your average band of thieves.You didn't made a new environment,but rather take one by force/powergaming..and of course it doesn't has an impact on role play since you keep ignoring and you don't even seem to been checking the bases/planets nearby..infocards/what do they sell..yes..there's also contraband items/smuggle routes through your "house"
Now a more serious question that keeps troubling through my mind:
Why haven't you had any new recruit since you change your roleplay from pirates to lawfully "house"
And in this case
oes your members likes the change?It does seems to me that your activity in liberty/bretonia and border worlds is none existent while the overall has been decreased drastically..
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Thexare - 08-20-2013
(08-20-2013, 12:59 AM)Chrome.Flare Wrote: So any person who dares to give you a truthful feedback you either ignore it,divert it from subject or just attack the person who post it
Very cute..why do you even reply than?
Yes, clearly I never actually reply to genuine attempts at feedback.
I do not appreciate bullheaded attempts to control the entire topic and the associated refusal to actually conisder the replies.
Quote:While you kill every rogues,lane hackers,outcast,pirates in these systems,even when they undock..Have we done this or indicated that we plan to do this, or are you just making things up?
Quote:So..when it's convenient you use the past to your own advantage when it suits you and when it doesn't you just keep ignoring it,as in this case your group overused caps in past to pirate sirius wide..Patently false unless things changed under Switchback's leadership.
Quote:You didn't made a new environment,but rather take one by force/powergaming..and of course it doesn't has an impact on role play since you keep ignoring and you don't even seem to been checking the bases/planets nearby..infocards/what do they sell..yes..there's also contraband items/smuggle routes through your "house"Oh no, there might be a chance for RP-based conflict. Whatever will we do?
Quote:And in this case
We've had no internal complaints about the change (though some discussion about the details), not that it's really any of your concern one way or the other.
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Anaximander - 08-20-2013
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: I'm not sure where you're getting that from. We only pirate certain groups -- namely Rheinland and Gallic corps -- who are unappreciated by our neutrals and friendlies. We're limiting our piracy ZoI significantly from what we had as a simple pirate ID group. We're certainly not just plain pirates. That's not what we want to be either.
In general, civilizations (and Houses by that accord) share the same view on the rule of law, e.g. (real world example, watch out!) a band of thieves (you are more than that, yes, but point still stands) pillaging Taliban controlled territory in Afghanistan exclusively would hardly be welcome guests within the US. Maybe they would be a tolerated presence in Afghanistan if the US were on their heels and didn't have a choice. Maybe.
It works for Privateers and GJ because they are the extended arm of those Houses within which they can pass freely. It IS a very powerful position to have that freedom without those ties, if you ask me.
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: We don't intend to wave the caps around, or use them for piracy and such activities. Just like the BHG|Core doesn't use their caps for hunting bounties.
That does sound good, maybe I'm just too old school but I'd rather see you go for a more humble no-cap plain Pirate ID approach and put heavy emphasis on roleplay achievements, rather than achieving ID, tech, "elevated lore" and powerful diplomacy (i.e. de facto gameplay related stuff). I'd rather see roleplay be a means AND an end, so to speak.
Also why would any unlawful faction in their right mind grant you caps and hand over their own power they've bled for just like that? Maybe it's just me getting the level of detail wrong in how light/heavy RP is supposed to be on Disco, but sharing "gamechanging" tech is just ludicrous in general (I mean it's not a VR thing, it's just a general Disco thing - [HF] with Ranseurs and Stortas suddenly changing their mind on diplomacy a few years down the road and using those ships to fight Outcasts comes to mind), no government or military leadership would ever do that, no populace could sit that idle by, it's hugely irresponsible. It's like playing poker and handing over all your aces to another dude at a table, however friendly he might seem at the moment. Why would you, when your responsibility towards your House and your citizens is that big? Why gamble when the stakes are that incredibly high?
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: What's stopping the LN is the fact that both sides enjoy roleplaying and the fun little treaties and stuff that result from it. We're not a threat to them. They accept that. It's a whole barrel of fun for the whole family!
That's fair as an oorp PoV, but strictly speaking any cap-wielding non-Liberty Navy group is a potential threat, treaties and honeyed words aside. Distribution of military power is a zero-sum game, the military and strategic value of each Liberty Navy cap diminishes with each non-Liberty cap in existence, that's common sense. That's why we in real life limit distribution of arms to keep "inflation" at a minimum, limiting government spending by not having to participate in an arms race to maintain the same level of dominance/power.
It's fine though if out of roleplay you've agreed that you won't be a danger to them in any way and you've agreed on the broader strokes of that deal but looking at it from an outside roleplay perspective it seems a bit sketchy.
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: We haven't requested a powerful ID. We've requested one that's less powerful than our current one. And I don't see what you mean by powerful diplomacy. We've made amends with two houses -- three others (plus the Corsairs and their allies) still don't like us being alive.
Well what other factions have those choices? Let's be real there can hardly be any doubt that an ID that allows piracy, caps AND neutral relations to lawfuls is a major upgrade from regular civ snub/gb scum-of-the-universe Pirate ID. Even the cargo capacity allowance was upgraded in your ID draft. I don't mind some ID's being better that others, but hey let's call a spade a spade.
(08-20-2013, 12:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: If you got shot by every LN and BAF indie in sight because "pirate id you die now engaging", you'd want to rectify that situation too.
Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic but I do believe that through your roleplay presence people will come to know you and how to act around you given time. If you asked the Official faction LN or BAF to spread the word among their indies, I'm sure that really wouldn't be so much of a problem, not one that would warrant an entirely new ID.
This is maybe a bit cynical, but look at the track record, you get your ID and all your stuff and the game becomes boring to you, and your faction dies out after a while; that's how it goes when you get too much too fast. Look around you, it's happened to several others factions that went through the same process and reached the end goal. It's not my place to say, really, but I think you could benefit from moving ahead slower, and maybe even defeating the need for a unique ID through roleplay presence. I mean I know who VR are, but it's been very sporadic over the years - why not establish a firm presence and then move ahead slowly?
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Kazinsal - 08-20-2013
As far as I'm aware, we're not actually welcome to hang around in Liberty at all, and we try to make our passage through Bretonia the shortest route in and out of the house to our destinations.
After deliberation with the high command, yeah, you've got a hell of a point, and we're removing cruisers from the ID request. We'll SRP anything we need special as we always have.
Our cargo cap allowance was reduced after the first revision.
Look at the track record? We're in this for a long while, trust me. We've just planned out multiple years of things we want to do, starting with a diplomatic shuffle. We wouldn't be drafting a full-on treaty with Liberty if we weren't here to stay.
Unrelated: Why is it so absurd-looking that we want to NOT be shot at by the superpowers we're sandwiched between in order to preserve the faction further?
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Anaximander - 08-20-2013
Hi, thanks for the answers. I'm sorry for being a p.i.t.a., I was just curious about stuff. Also good to hear that you're in it for the long haul, I was just being cynical because of the history of RoS and others, that doesn't mean that every faction have to go that way.
It's not absurd that you don't want to get shot, that's only natural, but we live in a world where states spy on their closest allies and friends, steal their technologies and so on, where "might is right" when it comes to security-related issues. Extrapolating from that line of thought to Disco fiction, a fleet of vagrant raiders is a liability to House gvt. no matter how genuinely nice they think you are and how friendly you want to be to them.
Can Lib gvt really be sure that you aren't targeting Liberty ships outside of Lib territory? Can they be sure you don't pirate Freelance Traders bringing supplies to Liberty? And so on and so forth. They'd have to keep you under surveillance to some extent to see if your words check out, at least if they are as concerned about homeland security as they seem to suggest, and that means you become an expense to Liberty - and who likes expenses? Lib gov could also go down the other route and not keep a close eye on you, which is irresponsible from a security point of view - and how long does irresponsible governments last? From a hardline PoV, you would be more of a bane than a boon to Liberty unless you were somehow heavily in debt to them or otherwise "ensnared" to a point where there wouldn't be a shred of doubt regarding your actions and intentions.
Again, views differ and we all have different interests. I find hardline power politics and intrigue interesting, but I am wholly aware that that is a choice, Disco is fiction and everything doesn't have to be overly "realistic" so don't take what I say too seriously. It's a very good writeup, you are dedicated to the project, and you've been around for a long time, so you deserve it just as much as any other group who got their ID in the past.
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Druen78 - 08-20-2013
Thanks a lot for the constructive criticism, Anaximander. We appreciate intelligent and reasoned arguments, they can make good things even better
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - SummerMcLovin - 08-20-2013
Just a little help to understand Liberty's view on the matter:
(08-03-2013, 06:39 AM)The Republic Of Liberty Wrote: The reason for our decision is twofold. Primarily, the disarmament and/or withdrawal of entities hostile to the Republic is usually viewed as a favourable outcome. While the intensity of our war with Rheinland is gradually dwindling, as both sides continue to take more defensive postures, you know all too well the threat of the Gallic Navy splintering through Bretonia and slipping towards Liberty's border. Accordingly, we cannot afford to be making more enemies at a time when we need all of our resources dedicated to eliminating the most prominent threats. While the Vagrant Raiders pose a minor threat at best, with their total combat potential projected to be well below the Hellfire Legion, it takes a wide search net to catch a small target, and thus trying to pin down their forces can be an extremely inefficient operation. By removing the Raiders from Liberty, we have the dual advantages of one less hostile group to keep in check, and knowing where their headquarters will be established. Should they betray us at a later stage - an eventuality that we have no choice but to prepare for - we will be able to strike directly at the heart of their operations.
Secondarily, the cessation of hostilities with the Vagrant Raiders provides a psychological boon to the population of Liberty. Civilians will feel more secure with the knowledge that there is one less predatory gang waiting to pounce from the void, and also that the Government in its benificence is able to forgive (to a certain degree) these low-lives for bearing arms against us. While it is an unlikely situation at best, there is a slim chance that their choice might persuade other miscreant parties to depart Liberty or seek forgiveness for their previous hostilities.
RE: Vagrant Raiders (VR-) - Kazinsal - 08-20-2013
Thanks for porting that over, Summer. I didn't want to drag an RP quote over to an OORP forum.
Unrelated: A short chain of posts was made in our old (defunct) feedback thread today -- I'll link it here for preservation: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=26308&pid=1392597#pid1392597