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+--- Thread: The Order of the Lion (/showthread.php?tid=20598)
The Order of the Lion - Zig - 05-18-2009
' Wrote:Perhaps precisely why this faction should never be made. You've got a vendetta for god knows whatever reason, and you're making a clan purely for self-gratification in that regard.
It's all very well to throw out a paragraph of self opinionated bile and then follow it up with "this isn't a flame attempt". I have no idea what your problem is with us as players, but Im fairly certain this whole idea has OORP motives.
You want get gratification by scoring PVP kills against a specific faction whos players you seem to have a vendetta against. This is no basis for a clan.
It's rich to post the above quote and then in your next post talk about "prejudice".
(I'll get around to answering everybody. Sorry if there're slight delays. Lots to talk about.)
What reason do I have for having a vendetta? Think about it. If anything, I'm beginning to get the impression that certain Corsair players here are giving eleven people's faction proposal a thumbs-down simply because they're aware that the player leading this faction is the same player that used to collect bounties on the Corsairs that crossed his path throughout Corsair homespace, and that they're disinclined to believe from the get-go that the player who used to shoot up their Corsair characters for credits and what is obviously seen as an itchy trigger finger can actually write up a thoroughly well-thought-out faction proposal firmly grounded in sound roleplay, which I genuinely believe the Order of the Lion has. Take a step back and view this faction with a less jaundiced eye, Carlos. I don't think I can be called opinionated here with much justification.
What you quoted was my response to Hawkwings' comment on the nature of established Corsair roleplay, and on how I feel it doesn't exactly correspond to Discovery reality anymore. Look, perhaps I phrased that badly, and I apologize. What I mean is merely that the Corsairs as a whole, including every Corsair far and wide, are pretty disorganized, which can't really be denied from an objective viewpoint, and that the Order therefore has a fighting chance when it comes to countering the Corsairs more directly. I wasn't blaming you, your own faction, or the various Corsair players posting throughout this thread in any way. Rather, what I was attempting to point out was that the Corsair Empire has its flaws that could be exploited by sufficiently clever strategy, as well. I'm sorry if I offended you, that wasn't the idea at all.
The Order of the Lion - teschy - 05-18-2009
' Wrote:So let me run this down,
1) non-governemnt group
2) Based of Freeports
3) Attacks Corsairs
Sounds like Bounty Hunters to me.
Whilst I do appreciate your concerns, and the fact that you are responding to this thread, I can't help it but notice that you are taking the entire thing a bit superficially, and in a more or less disrespectful and arrogant manner.
It's been clearly stated that this organization will not base itself off Freeports, although operating deep in the Edge worlds. That's why one of the goals of the faction is to build a hub in the omicrons, free of Zoner and Bounty Hunter influence.
Also, I'm afraid that most of the people that are posting here are misinterpreting some pretty obvious facts. One of them being that, although the Order has a great set of goals to achieve, it doesn't mean they'll be able succeed, but at least try, valiantly. It's the same thing happening to other factions, Corsairs couldn't push forward into Rheinland, Hessians couldn't invade Gamma, the Dragons didn't overthrow the shogunate - and so many other similar situations.
The Order of the Lion - pipboy - 05-18-2009
' Wrote:pipboy - bretonia will not be fighting on two fronts. a paramilitarian force that has seperated itself from the BAF and the citizens of bretonia will be fighting the corsairs. we are still allied to them, but (hopefully) act seperately. We will also be generating our own supplies, and will not be stupid and attack when we cannot afford to. you should also read above posts, as some of your comments have been answered to before
Let's go out on a limb and say you're successful and start making trouble for the Corsairs. When they retaliate where do you think they are going to strike?
Bretonia.
And thus, Bretonia will be fighting a war on two fronts thanks to the actions of your order. Not because you are with the BAF but rather because you started something that you aren't powerful enough to finish.
' Wrote:That would be an excellent argument and doubtlessly very true if the Corsairs were capable of summoning up the coordination and organizatorial skill of a banana. Fortunately for the Order, they can't, so we feel validated in assuming that we can, in fact, take the Corsair Empire on, the Knights of the Lion being superior in terms of planning and competence in fights.
The Corsair Empire is a little like the European Union, really - very powerful in theory, but rather ineffective in reality due to the tendency of its members to scheme and politicize against each other and to get hung up on minor details. The Corsairs might, theoretically, be a very powerful force. However, in actuality, the Corsair "Empire" consists of a great deal of absolutely bloody incompetent unaffiliated pilots whose sole purpose in life seems to be valiantly defending Planet Crete's docking ring and of several more organized factions whose half-hearted attempts to guide the unwashed Corsair masses along the road to intelligence and sanity seem sadly ineffectual, and who are themselves beginning to drop in quality (this is only my perception of matters and isn't intended as a flame attempt). The Corsairs the Order of the Lion will be dealing with in practice can't muster a force to "squash us like a mosquito". Hell, I doubt they could even squash a real mosquito - they'd probably need to settle on a chain of command as well as move away from Crete to manage that.
I'm afraid you're getting confused between in game lore and RP, and the actions of dozens of mostly indie Corsair pilots which have very little real effect on overall Corsair RP.
Lore states that the Corsairs are extremely powerful, organized, and wealthy. They do not hover around a docking ring, but rather expand their sphere of influence at every opportunity.
The dozens of indie Corsair players that hover around Crete do the opposite. Does that mean that the in game lore is wrong? No, it just means that a bunch of pilots are hovering around Crete.. You can't base a faction RP off of a bunch of people hovering around a docking ring for no good reason. That's not RP, that's OORP.
The Order of the Lion - Zig - 05-18-2009
Honesty is good, that's something I can definitely work with. Alright. Let's handle this politely and with care.
Well, first off, thanks for having the integrity to admit that it's me that's being found fault with here, rather than the Order of the Lion. This faction of ours - mine and that of ten other people at this point - is, I believe, original, inventive, and soundly and thoroughly roleplayed. I think it's based upon an appealing idea and offers genuine roleplay potential. Looks like, by and large, this seems to be the majority opinion among the people posting here. The primaries involved (like the BAF) seem to have given us a tentative seal of approval, which we appreciate.
On to me. This reputation you say I've built on Disco? Honestly, I feel I'm dealing with two separate perceptions of me at this point - one from Disco's non-Corsair players, who don't, I think, see me as the worst thing since value-added tax, and one from Disco's Corsairs, who persist in seeing me as the guy that used to maraud through Omicron Gamma and, therefore, as the blue kill message devil incarnate. I still think that my roleplay on Zak was appropriate and I have no regrets about my actions during the M&S period, and I'm inclined to say that much of the resentment I'm getting stems from players whose Corsairs Zak took out and who bear a grudge against me for that, for some reason. However, to convince these Corsair critics of mine that I'm not, in fact, just in it for the PvP, I've been staying away from the Corsair hornets' nest lately and have been doing constructive work with the BHG| in Liberty. Unfortunately, it seems that consideration for that's gone largely out the window now that I've proposed returning to Corsair space.
Yes, I'll be honest, I think that the average Corsair is a pretty bad PvPer, but who cares? As I've said, and as I'd like you and the other Corsairs to actually believe, I'm in it for the roleplay, not for the PvP, and always have been, even though that may not have appeared so to you and other Corsair players in the past. I hope that's a sufficiently direct and truthful answer.
The Order of the Lion - Zavier - 05-18-2009
To be utterly honest, Zig, think about this from the Admiralty's eyes.
Your armed civilians would be of MUCH better use in Leeds, then they could ever be in Gamma. Bretonia does NOT need two house-sized enemies attacking them from both ends of their space, because your little pipsqueak squadron decided to go piss the Corsairs off.
Also, by and by, the Zoners will NOT let you use their freeports as bases, nor will they let you build your own base in their systems. I doubt you can bring enough snubships to fight off the Zoners in their homesystem just so you can build a base.
The Order of the Lion - pchwang - 05-18-2009
Unfortunately, this gets a no from me.
I have no issues with your idea for the faction whatsoever, aside from the fact that I am completely against fractionating House Militaries.
But, you have yet to prove yourself a moderate, level-headed member of the community before you can lead a faction. I do not feel that I am alone with this thought: I don't trust you to run a faction like this.
The Order of the Lion - Zelot - 05-18-2009
Well Zig, first, it is not just that your name is at the top, as I said that leads to more skepticism from people, not that if you weren't there, it would be perfect, it's not. The truth of the matter is that all that bretonian muscle that is going to be used in fighting the Corsairs, and I dont mean ships, I mean pilots (if they can fight in gamma they can fight in Leeds.)
As to you thinking this is some Corsair bias against you, I would argue that the number of factions you have been asked to leave, none of which are Corsairs, would show that it is not only Corsairs that feel this way.
The Order of the Lion - Zig - 05-18-2009
' Wrote:To be utterly honest, Zig, think about this from the Admiralty's eyes.
Your armed civilians would be of MUCH better use in Leeds, then they could ever be in Gamma. Bretonia does NOT need two house-sized enemies attacking them from both ends of their space, because your little pipsqueak squadron decided to go piss the Corsairs off.
Also, by and by, the Zoners will NOT let you use their freeports as bases, nor will they let you build your own base in their systems. I doubt you can bring enough snubships to fight off the Zoners in their homesystem just so you can build a base.
It's my firm belief that our "little pipsqueak squadron" is capable of facing the Corsairs. That is, both in terms of the Corsair player base and in terms of the abstract Corsair Empire. My arguments as to that can be found a page or two back. I've always been of the opinion that the (in-roleplay) actions of the players representing NPC factions influence said factions to a certain degree, right down to the purely theoretical parts. The Corsairs cannot organize to attack Bretonia and would not organize to attack Bretonia. The Corsairs are vulnerable, and the Order of the Lion is trained and equipped to exploit those vulnerabilities. If the Corsairs launched an attack against Bretonia, the Empire would only become even more vulnerable and even more likely to break apart at the seams. As the Order operates far away from Bretonia and politically separately to a large degree, launching a revenge operation against Bretonia, beyond not being feasible, wouldn't even make sense - that'd be like Saladin invading England during the historical Third Crusade.
Zoners own exactly one system - Omicron-74. That's it. Omicron Theta is unclaimed space. Any such base would be well-hidden and even better-protected, namely by the bulk of the crusade's forces.
The Order of the Lion - Zig - 05-18-2009
' Wrote:Well Zig, first, it is not just that your name is at the top, as I said that leads to more skepticism from people, not that if you weren't there, it would be perfect, it's not. The truth of the matter is that all that bretonian muscle that is going to be used in fighting the Corsairs, and I dont mean ships, I mean pilots (if they can fight in gamma they can fight in Leeds.)
As to you thinking this is some Corsair bias against you, I would argue that the number of factions you have been asked to leave, none of which are Corsairs, would show that it is not only Corsairs that feel this way.
The matter of troop distribution is something I've argued in detail in multiple previous posts.
Uh, I've never been asked to leave a faction. I abandoned my two-day-old independent Farmers Alliance character because of differences between you and me, out of respect for your plans for your [AFA]. That's it. The factions I've applied to are the LR, [LN], RoS, BHG| (of which I'm a Guildmaster), LPI, and [KNF]. I was rejected from none and remain a member in good standing of all of these, excepting the [KNF], which I chose to resign from due to time constraints. You may be confusing me with someone else.
The Order of the Lion - teschy - 05-18-2009
' Wrote:To be utterly honest, Zig, think about this from the Admiralty's eyes.
Your armed civilians would be of MUCH better use in Leeds, then they could ever be in Gamma. Bretonia does NOT need two house-sized enemies attacking them from both ends of their space, because your little pipsqueak squadron decided to go piss the Corsairs off.
Also, by and by, the Zoners will NOT let you use their freeports as bases, nor will they let you build your own base in their systems. I doubt you can bring enough snubships to fight off the Zoners in their homesystem just so you can build a base.
Pardon me, but who said that the Omicrons are owned by the Zoners? You do understand that the main reason to -why- they're neutral to everyone out there, is directly related to that fact? Zoners mind their own business, and it's one of their basic survival strategy.
Our little pipsqueak squadron, as you take it, was actually formed to prevent the Corsairs from taking advantage of the fact that the main military force is focused on North Bretonia, against the Kusari forces. Trust me, if the Corsairs want something, they'll go for it whether someone ticks them off or not. Or at least in proper RP, don't you think?