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+--- Thread: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? (/showthread.php?tid=100934)
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Doria - 07-01-2013
Read the server rules, please...
4.7 Official player factions have authority over players of the same NPC affiliation, as long as RP justification is provided. This authority applies in forums and in-game, and applies to player faction diplomacy, and strategic and tactical direction.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - SMGSterlin - 07-01-2013
Regarding the replies to my "Zoners can't build food, how are they still alive" thing...
Yes, Corsairs are a somewhat related faction, however, the Corsairs have a source of income from their artifacts, so they can afford to have friends who bring them food. I'm not sure what the Zoners produce for a source of income, I believe it's only the FP 11 Zoners in Delta who have something to produce and sell, that being Iridium. So apparently the Zoners just magically get food, even though they have nothing to trade for it.
And when that fails for the Sairs, they go out and catch anOutcast or Zoner and barbecue him up. I don't think the Zoners have resorted to cannibalism..... Yet.
EDIT: That is, unless the Zoners actually produce their own food, which they do, almost every Zoner station has biodomes for growing food.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Thyrzul - 07-01-2013
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Zoners have claimed all sorts of things throughout the years, some with success and some without. When you say "general Zoner Lore" and "the Zoner Way" as if those are things set in stone, you cannot be more wrong.
When I say "general Zoner lore" and "the Zoner Way", I refer to what's in common in those claims which ended in success and resulted in the survival of Zoners. Unsuccessful claims often concluded the termination and/or exile of said Zoner group. Currently ZA is going against my definition of "the Zoner Way" and the only thing saving their asses is a faulty system based solely on game mechanics and lack any roleplay other than what the owners decide to add.
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: But you are.
Wow, nice argument. Guess what, you too.
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: I don't ignore your points, I just strongly disagree. You keep clinging to your PoV as if it is the only legitimate one, when it isn't.
So you disagree with viewing the whole situation thoroughly and from an objective PoV, right? You keep clinging to your subjective PoV as if it is the only legitimate one, you keep being butthurt because something didn't result the way you expected it to result, and because of this you keep ignoring the little details, the reasons why things happened the way they did. Deal with it, you got shot by Mal FP in the past, you whined, you got reimbursed, done. I got shot too, I did not whine at all, because I know what was the intention behind the whole and that the lack of proper tools led them to deal with an issue this way. You had your options to avoid the issue, you did nothing against it, you whined afterwards, got reimbursed and still blaming the TAZ for something you are as much at fault as they are. And then of course you hide behind the excuse that your character is an outcast with a narrow-minded way of thinking, falsely believing that justifies you to utilize this way of thinking in ooRP debates too. With this way of thinking it is pretty much understandable why you ignore the details and why you fail to look at the whole scheme from an objective and neutral viewpoint. Somehow I feel you don't even want to consider the case of TAZ from a neutral viewpoint.
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: That is exactly what I am saying, they should let another faction within the ID step up to the plate if they can't handle it themselves. No more Zombie factions, but fresh and vibrant ones instead.
How about actually joining that faction to spice it up? Sad to see nobody is thinking about this idea, nobody is caring about the ones in those "zombie factions", nobody gives a crap about how much efforts they put into developing the faction so far, just form concurrency so they can take over without too much effort simply because the said "zombie faction" lacks the activity to represent themselves in-game and nobody helps them in that.
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: This is however not what I am saying. I'm saying if theoretically GRN| couldn't live up to their duties, they should pass on the torch. If Phoenix or whoever claims ownership of O-74 can't enforce their own rule, they should pass it on to ZA.
The problem with this is only that currently Phoenix is only unable to enforce their own rule because of a new feature of the mod with faulty game mechanics and a bunch of lolwuts calling themselves Zoners and acting like a dictatorship, exploiting this feature doesn't let them. Without PoBs ZA would have fallen long ago, faster than their predecessors, like OZ, etc...
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: When I say in-game stuff trumps forum stuff, I mean that if you for instance write a brilliant story about how you are the meanest Fighter Ace in all of Sirius but you suck at PVP, you can't expect people to let the "forum truth" take precedence and intentionally lose to you. If you say a system is yours, but someone else manages to build and maintain 4 Core 4 bases against your will, the system wasn't really yours at all; and you should treat it as an actual roleplay event rather than default to "your rp is wrong, check the forum, we're the bosses". So you can ignore in-game events, but that doesn't mean they haven't happened.
The first part of this piece of quote describes a case when one tries to roleplay himself as something better than he actually is, a lesser kind of powergaming, not from the harmful kind yet, I totally agree with your reasoning there. Thing is, that's only the word of one man, and his actions defy his own words. In the case of O74, it's the word of quite many against quite few, and the only thing ZA have are their bases, which things we all know how faulty feature are.
Now, using PoBs as a roleplay argument while they are still this faulty and technically invincible at a certain point is not a really valid argument. Let's talk about them when they will be kill able at any circumstances, okay?
Now, using PoBs as a roleplay argument while they are still this faulty and technically invincible at a certain point is not a really valid argument. Let's talk about them when they will be kill able at any circumstances, okay?
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: FYI: On 2 different Corsair characters I've been shooting that base, helping [TBH] kill some respawning ZA supply transports (with mortars, yay) and generally done my best to pirate ZA + friends blind when I haven't had the chance to shoot at them. One of my characters do it out of loyalty to the Elders and the Sails leadership, the other one has done it simply out of greed and lust for war; had he been offered some credits to shoot at that AI base he'd be all in; and he would also be inclined to seek vengeance if an Elder showed and called him "infected" (whereas the first character would have thrown his Titan at ten Juggernauts if an Elder had asked him to).
The question is how plausible roleplay is when a corsair disagrees with the nation's interests in favor of their own gain, and how long would he survive at home being branded as a traitor for discarding the orders of an elder simply out of greed.
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: I think both paths are viable, we're roleplaying a dynamic universe; and rather than cling to our own personal ideas of the structures and "how it's supposed to be" people should just stick to what's actually happening with the ZA roleplay and layoff the forum oorp witch hunt. Take it as a challenge and roll with it.
Mostly the ideas of "how it's supposed to be" are the ideas bearing the least negative consequences for your characters. What is actually happening with ZA is that they turn practically everybody against themselves, and this is happening on the forums too, not just in-game. I wonder if they are shooting TAZ now or not, Dvir is trying some negotiations, but Udent has already made clear he is the boss and that they consider TAZ hostile. This was not decided in-game.
(06-30-2013, 11:36 PM)sindroms Wrote: Apparently the ZA do now. If you can do it ingame and you have the manpower to do it, then you should be able to. Just because the skypelancer factions might not like it, well then, taugh shait. RP happens ingame, not on the forums and skype, so if you cannot establish a faction good enough to actually make an impact on the ingame universe, you should not act like you have the power. Simple as that.
But neither do they have the manpower, only PoBs, which are a faulty feature of the mod, still need adjustment, and thus can hardly be considered a viable tool of RP arguments as long as the removal of a Core4 requires such a force which crashes the server after 5 minutes. RP happens in-game AND on forums, you cannot deny that, otherwise a big portion of this forum would be useless and not used at all. As you see, the RP sections are quite popular. Means, RP happen on forums as well, simple as that.
(06-30-2013, 11:36 PM)sindroms Wrote: My hat is off to the ZA. They came in, got the people they needed, built up a force to rival most of the official factions around that area of Sirius and nobody can do anything about them. Kudos. That is how to deal with the outstanding monotony of official groups circlejerking around and sitting on lours.
Not too hard if people have faith in you for being a potential addition to the community, not knowing how the whole will end later. Yup, kudos to them for exploiting and abusing the system of PoBs to their full extend, as much as possible, defying common sense and going straight against Lore, inRP relations and discarding the actual weaknesses of the faction they use the ID of.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Quiron - 07-01-2013
(06-30-2013, 11:36 PM)sindroms Wrote: Apparently the ZA do now. If you can do it ingame and you have the manpower to do it, then you should be able to. Just because the skypelancer factions might not like it, well then, taugh shait. RP happens ingame, not on the forums and skype, so if you cannot establish a faction good enough to actually make an impact on the ingame universe, you should not act like you have the power. Simple as that.
My hat is off to the ZA. They came in, got the people they needed, built up a force to rival most of the official factions around that area of Sirius and nobody can do anything about them. Kudos. That is how to deal with the outstanding monotony of official groups circlejerking around and sitting on lours.
Well, if we stick strictly that RP happens ingame, ZA would have been completely wiped out in the first day of this mess by the Order and several indies since that cap spam back then had the power to do so.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Kazinsal - 07-01-2013
Y'all are going about this the wrong way.
OORP transports supplying the base? No problem. Blow them the hell up.
Forces trying to stake a claim illegitimately? Blow them the hell up.
ZA making threatening statements towards you and your faciton? Blow them the hell up.
You're at war now. Stop being dramatic on the forums. Blow stuff the hell up.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Thyrzul - 07-01-2013
The problem is that blockades require way more effort to be effective compared to blockade running. A blockade runner can log anytime he wants to feed the base, a blockader has to be present every time, constantly, to prevent that feeding. The efforts put into each action are not proportional to each other. Another sign of how imbalanced the system is.
And again, Core4 bases are technically invulnerable.
And again, Core4 bases are technically invulnerable.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Kazinsal - 07-01-2013
A core 4 base is invulnerable if you supply it.
The Order has more than enough players, official and unofficial, for at least ONE person in a bomber to be in Omicron-74 at all times.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Di'taraAlpha - 07-01-2013
ZA's actual manpower is minute. The amount of alt accounts they incessantly switch to isn't. For the love of God, commend people for Rping well and not stealing onto other people's lawns. Sindroms, I believe your mistaking "manpower" for "potential ability to violate the game rules".
Everyone in the Order, Consensus, Solar, Corsairs, Phoenix and everyone else who has been doing their utmost to remove these oorp Pob's has been getting flack for it. Why? What have we done? What exactly do you think we have done illegitimately?
People who go "Yay! ZA, look at the little guys taking on those big, idiotic officials" seem to forget the spirit of this mod, as an Rp server. As aforementioned the amount of manpower ZA requires to survive and supply is very small. This means one ZXBT transport can ruin several hours of sieging by innumerable large battleships. No wonder people are getting bored of the siege.
The fact is, the bases would be legitimate if they had some Rp in their construction (I.E. Liviada palace or any of the Consensus base attempts, both of which no longer exist now). There's no sense of fair play.
I ask you, if a hypothetical unofficial faction with more noobships than LNS built lots of core 4 hostile POB's outside the Manhattan mooring fixture and set them to all hostile, would you then accuse liberty of being too inactive to control the system?
Rrrrgh! Oh and please read some of the excellent arguments put here before attempting to counter!
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Anaximander - 07-01-2013
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: Currently ZA is going against my definition of "the Zoner Way"
And you still don't see what you are doing wrong?
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: So you disagree with viewing the whole situation thoroughly and from an objective PoV, right?
No, you haven't been getting what I say at all. I am saying there are more than one legitimate PoV, which is why you should be more open and not rest on that one PoV as if it was a higher truth. Nuance your PoV and stop being so categorical.
Do I think ZA is making a mess? Yes. Do I condone their jumphole base shooting at stuff? No. Have I been shooting ZA and friends? Yes. Do I think it's fair that they are getting this oorp forum treatment and get branded "heretics", when other people get off the hook for similar shanannigans? No, I don't.
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: Deal with it, you got shot by Mal FP in the past, you whined, you got reimbursed, done. I got shot too, I did not whine at all, because I know what was the intention behind the whole and that the lack of proper tools led them to deal with an issue this way.
I whined and got reimbursed in-rp, yes. You are saying your character got shot down, shrugged, and went and got a new ship npnp? That's some solid roleplay.
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: Somehow I feel you don't even want to consider the case of TAZ from a neutral viewpoint.
There is no neutral standpoint when they are shooting at me for no reason whatsoever. They showed hostility, and I'm supposed to retaliate with neutrality? What's wrong with you?
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: How about actually joining that faction to spice it up?
Ehh, I am a member of several factions; I applied to join one of the less active factions - as you know very well - but I am still waiting for reply. Your arrogance is strong when you assume things.
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: The problem with this is only that currently Phoenix is only unable to enforce their own rule because of a new feature of the mod with faulty game mechanics and a bunch of lolwuts calling themselves Zoners and acting like a dictatorship, exploiting this feature doesn't let them. Without PoBs ZA would have fallen long ago, faster than their predecessors, like OZ, etc...
Read what Phoenix themselves say in this thread: They don't own O-74, neither inrp or oorp.
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: Thing is, that's only the word of one man, and his actions defy his own words. In the case of O74, it's the word of quite many against quite few, and the only thing ZA have are their bases, which things we all know how faulty feature are.
You ever stopped to think that maybe the forum isn't representative at all for the players on the server? A lot of people can't be bothered going here, a lot of people can't be bothered commenting, and there is a certain dogmatic atmosphere that is hard to break. You shouldn't "invoke the power of the people" when it is something you cannot claim to have. Again, it is arrogance of 1st degree.
(07-01-2013, 06:50 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: The question is how plausible roleplay is when a corsair disagrees with the nation's interests in favor of their own gain, and how long would he survive at home being branded as a traitor for discarding the orders of an elder simply out of greed.
You won't get branded traitor. Look at the Corsair Court, look at how the Elders conduct business. You seem to neither have a clue about Corsairs as an NPC faction as well as Corsairs represented by the official factions (who do a damn fine job btw). The "when I say jump, you say how high" approach doesn't necessarily fit the bill for all Corsairs, like it does for say the Liberty Navy.
RE: So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much? - Rodnas - 07-01-2013
(06-30-2013, 07:27 PM)Anaximander Wrote: In-game events > forum events, in-game reality > forum reality. The mod and the game is the focus, not self-made forum stories and forum lore. If you can't make anyone in-game do your bidding, you are not in command. If you can sit by and let 4 Core 4 bases be built against your will in your system, you are not in command even though you and your friends wrote some nice stories about how you are. That's Discovery for you, make the most of it and enjoy it.
(06-30-2013, 10:48 PM)Anaximander Wrote: When I say in-game stuff trumps forum stuff, I mean that if you for instance write a brilliant story about how you are the meanest Fighter Ace in all of Sirius but you suck at PVP, you can't expect people to let the "forum truth" take precedence and intentionally lose to you. If you say a system is yours, but someone else manages to build and maintain 4 Core 4 bases against your will, the system wasn't really yours at all; and you should treat it as an actual roleplay event rather than default to "your rp is wrong, check the forum, we're the bosses". So you can ignore in-game events, but that doesn't mean they haven't happened.
In all honesty this is the completly wrong line of thought - because if you extend it, SCRA bombersquads would have "inRPly ingame" killed all Corsair Capships, OC and Sairs would both have at one point or another killed off the other completly, same for the Hessians relation.
You could even drive it to the top and get some buddies to set up a base late night in front of your enemies base, get it to a decent core asap( of course supplying it as oorply as possible, maybe even from the sieged base?!) and claim you are killing of the other base, taking over the system because no one can stop your uberpower-base?? So 2-3 people should be able to dominate anotehr NPC faction+ its lore jsut because of a game mechanic abuse?
Another example: we all know there are groups of medium-good pvpers playing inrply small groups that don't deliver any real weight to the lore due to their small size. So what would you say if our all time favourite merc company decides to show up in full strenght and dominates NY for 3 days, claiming it as theirs , renaming it to Mercland....because hey, server play trumps lore and everything and no one stopped them?
The fact is server gameplay can't represent lore or the "real" development as it is technically limited as well as by manpower. This is a rp server - if you siege one lousy base and look at the inrp numbers , you need more battleships the sairs and the OC have combined and not even liberty could devote that many off its frontlines to clean house.
Only on the forums you have no technical limitations so you can at least try to bring some air of sense into the events, there you are only limited by your brain and the cooperation with others to write a story for the server. Thus, forum rp >>>ingame events