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+--- Thread: Restrictions on capital ship use (/showthread.php?tid=6537)
Restrictions on capital ship use - Qunitinius~Verginix - 02-28-2008
They are part of the Rheinland Military, that is what their ID says. They take orders from us, but that is only because of our control as the Dominant faction. I will still try to RP with them as I should with any other player.
Verg
Restrictions on capital ship use - Praetyre - 02-28-2008
Well, you CAN buy a Coalition ID, but only the SCRA are considered Coalition. Equally, if they are part of the Rheinland Military, they would have a [RM] tag, no? I mean, they would need the permission of RM leadership or their delegates to join in the first place. I suppose if they were authorized by ground commanders, they could be unmarked Rheinheer ships..
I recall an old group known as [Rheinland], matter of fact. They had Rheinland Military IDs..
Restrictions on capital ship use - bluntpencil2001 - 02-28-2008
' Wrote:Well, you CAN buy a Coalition ID, but only the SCRA are considered Coalition. Equally, if they are part of the Rheinland Military, they would have a [RM] tag, no?
Actually, buying a Coalition ID without SCRA membership appears to be grounds for sanctioning these days. Which is good.
I remember coming across a Bretonian destroyer once when I had my QCP, with a Police ID claiming to be Coalition. He claimed that he was the real Coalition and had discovered Sirius, making peace with the locals, sitting in Tau-31 shooting pirates, and even offering to sign up and fight against the SCRA who aren't the real Coalition. Quite funny, really, although I'm sure I have a better anecdote lying around somewhere.
Restrictions on capital ship use - Xing - 02-28-2008
Qunit, here's something weird - im not saying you are wrong or anything. But I used to have a rheinland cruiser, now cosnidering a cruiser is commanded usually by a captain, why would a captain receive order from the first RM pilot twit he crosses - espeicially if, lets say, its a lieutnant.
Now, I didn't had much problems with obeying orders to the RM when on my cruiser, but always felt it was a bit weird. Rank system doesnt work well in those situations, hence a rp lack of realism.
on the other hand, if we let mature capship pilots go around, rping high ranking officer in solo, no problem really.
But what I don't want to see is about capship piltos, who does not say a damn word in any situation, only cares about pvp and talks like "lol pwned" and are, for some reason, infinitely patient to buy a battleship.
another reason for me to choose capships to "mature" players only: heres a situation i saw in rheinland once, when i was driving cruiser. We were 2 cruiser, and a few independent rm plus some bounty hunter.
I sighted 1 red hessian, and with a bh gunboat, decided to follow it.
but at the end, the whole capships around were running after that LONE red hessian... I thought, this isnt fair to that hessian guy.
So I simply announced "Aborting chase, no point in sending so much warships for a lone pirate...."
I'm afraid though, from many people telling their experience here, that people who thinks like me aren't that many in the ranks of the indie capship owners.
Restrictions on capital ship use - Jinx - 02-28-2008
its quite simple - if the RM would be the one and only faction representing rheinland - they would have custom ID. - they have not ( so you cannot compare it to the coalition sort of, cause that is not a generic npc id )
what makes a player part of a faction:
- his roleplay ( provided he has a flawless RP )
- his ship ( must be supported by his RP )
- his ID ( of course IDed for the appropriate faction he RPs )
- his tag ( matching the ID as closely as possible aswell as his RP )
the above are the rules that are the same for everyone.
what you guys said means, that he is a rogue agent, even if he is flying a light fighter. its not related to capships. if you only apply it to capships, then i would question the RP reasoning for blowing someone up.
if all of that is present, he is part of the faction. only when the rheinland military generic ID is taken out of the game and replaced with a [RM] ID - then i will agree that indeed, everyone must be part of that faction. saying otherwise means to disrespect others roleplay as a member of a npc faction.
the [RM] are not more or less roleplaying than any other person that is flying with the rheinland flag and ID and ship and roleplay. having a guard system and a tag doesn t mean you coronate yourself king over the rest of the faction. it means you have influence and power, but power to eradicate all others within the faction?
again, what happens when a new player wants to start a rheinland police faction, and a really good one, mind. does he have the right to do so? - how much will he be under orders of the military - even if the military cares for military business and the police for civilian businesses?
think about it
example: i make a BHG faction and become official - do i have the right to blow all other BHGs up? - cause, i can say, i am the dominant PF - all others are imposters and appear to act against the orders of the core
Restrictions on capital ship use - Praetyre - 02-28-2008
I ask, then. If someone not part of the [RM]/Rheinland Military, and possesses their tag, ID and ship, who are they working for? Is there some invisible Rheinland agency we aren't aware of?
Anyway, we are getting off topic. I personally think that it makes RP sense to require the consent of (most) PC factions to operate a capital vessel.
Restrictions on capital ship use - Jinx - 02-28-2008
that is about the direct ranks given to the players by themselves.
provided there is a NPC faction, players would NEVER have the highest rank ... like fleet admiral or whatever. - the highest rank for a playerfaction would be somewhat lower, like admiral. - so a player choosing to play this faction could still be under the comand of the highest comander.
in return, i would ask you - is the rheinland lawful faction locked for any player that does not wish to be part of the RM now? ... is that OK if we apply it to other factions? - lock down every every independent anywhere there is a playerfaction that has given themselves the rank of supreme ruler?
- to answer your question directly - a player with appropriate tag, ship, equipment, roleplay, ID is in fact - rheinland military... and i would ask why is it that the RM claims to rule it all. such an attitute "might" work ( greatly limited ) for an NPC faction like the LSF - but locking down everyone that is not joining this playerfaction from playing as a rheinland lawful is... unsportive.
again, i ask you then - with darkwing being the only official BHG faction - are all other BHGs rogue agents? - if not, what makes them different to the RM. is it all based on their NPC role or is it that some factions are a bit too full of themselves. ( don t get me wrong, i sort of agree with RM being dominant, but dominant doesn t mean to lock out everything else - it means that you are strong, but not the only ones )
a playerfaction possesses power and coordination. thats what makes them strong. they are in fact small. thats why i rather use the term "subsection" of a NPC faction. the BHG are all the countless NPCs around, they are under the core command. the players are VIPs that are sticking out. a playerfaction is a squadron or a special forces section - but they are not... the "countless NPCs".
with that in mind - do you think it is OK when the leader of the bretonian forces was named queen carina? - or should he rather be admiral ( meaning there are higher ranks ).
Restrictions on capital ship use - Simsonator - 02-28-2008
Personally i think you cannot compare the bounty hunters to the military. Bounty hunters have always worked independantly, with the BHG on freelancer supposed to be a loosely collected group of them. This to me means that yes, independants playing as BHs is perfectly acceptable. To have independant cap ship owners as any of the house militaries just seems ridiculous. Personally i would not like it if i was in my nice Royal navy patrol boat, and saw some unregistered Type 45 destroyer heading towards me... Same issue with cap ships here. I voted for the Player factions having control, as to me it seems like the most realistic option, though maybe not the most achievable.
Restrictions on capital ship use - blubba - 02-28-2008
I voted to make em more expensive. I don't mean the initial cost though, I mean to run. A lot more. They cost enough to buy now (Although increasing the purchase cost of cruisers, destroyers and battlecruisers wouldn't hurt).
As for who has rank and where they got their ship etc, a thorny question indeed. Whilst official clans/factions with name like Rheinland Military or Liberty Security Force (Both great RP'ers by the way) may have an official title, it's not official in Freelancer - the game. I know that sounds wrong but can we command NPC's?
Do we accept orders from them?
Obviously not but they are still rheinland military or LSF. The same goes for indies. As long as their roleplay is good (which I admit can be lacking sometimes) what does it matter who is in 'command?'
We have to differentiate between RM/LSF and the NPC LSF or rheinland military. There is room for indies alongside NPC's. Your 'same ID'ed' NPC's foe is your foe etc. I'd like to think that most indies would tend to follow the lead of an equally tagged clan member cos they don't have the experience that clan players do. If they do have the experience, then they would probably go along with the clan player anyway for exactly the same reason. If it doesn't work out like that, then it may just be bad RP. They can be bad at RP in smaller ships as well though.
Just like to add that I used RM and LSF as examples of clans who are big, frequently encountered, knowledgable on Disco and generally good RPers.
Restrictions on capital ship use - Praetyre - 02-29-2008
It matters very much, because by nature a military is based off a chain of command. Simsonator correctly pointed out the differences between militaries and the BHG, who are independent by nature.
In RP, Fleet Admirals Krieg and Hiltraud almost certainly DO have authority over all the NPCs, and the NPCs would be members of their faction. OORP, the [RM] owns Braunschweig, granting them rights to do such a thing.
You assume there are two RMs, an NPC RM faction and the [RM]. The [RM], as owners of Braunschweig, say otherwise. They are also admin approved. Thus, since it's part of commonly agreed 'lore', because they own the system, and because they are admin approved, the [RM] and the NPC RM faction are synonymous, much as the Coalition and the SCRA are synonymous. The RM battleships around New Berlin are part of a "base" for RP which the [RM] has now claimed with the guard system and is part of, whereas "independents" are an RP-breaking, difficult to justify anomaly. So, my RM character doesn't acknowledge them.
If you take numbers literally, the BLS, the largest cardamine cartel in Sirius, has 5 members. In RP, a lot of Outcast NPCs would be BLS members. It's not powergaming as much as application of common sense. I mean, what subsection of a military is lead by a Fleet Admiral?
If independents want to use military snub ships, more power to them. But in the interests of a widely agreed RP, they should do so with the permission of or after joining the faction of the guard system owner.