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+--- Thread: the differences of lag induced gameplay (/showthread.php?tid=100239)
the differences of lag induced gameplay - JIVA - 06-12-2013
Since there have been a number of sanctions concerning that problem. Is is possible for the admin team to possibly list up the different lag types and which ones are considered cheating and which ones are definite server lag?
It does not need to be said what causes what if you believe that it promotes cheating but it might be beneficial to know what is what.
For example simultanous downloads while being online, multiple computers surfing the internet on one modem etc.
edit:
i find that important cause Hawk stated in one of the sanctions that such an effect may indeed be involuntary or accidental, so it seems that it must not necessarily be caused by a specific cheating program but probably also by circumstances. He also stated that the admin team can clearly identify server lag vs. non server lag.
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - Anaximander - 06-12-2013
its not lag, you can clearly see in the video that he "jitters". sort of micro-lags. When players lag, their ship either sit still for a little while, or they beam away. Even when it's just a small lag, its much more "smooth" than what you see in that video. They dont jump back and forth rapidly in jitters. When fighting, its very easy to feel the difference between someone that lags and someone that jitters.
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - cata77 - 06-12-2013
It is that simple :
- lag server affects everyone not only ONE player
- those who know they cheat by inducing lag knows exactly what lag induce cheat means ( they know who they are , i also made a post about them and a lot of peps just thought i was crazy - still sanctions appeared after my post )
- if if are not involved in a fight but near you peps are firing like hell and you have no lag - well ... be carefull , if you sudenly develope lag IF you are attacked that means you cheat , is that obvious that we dont even have to explain more than that ( i'm not evev a little ironic )
- if you don't cheat you have nothing to be affraid of , all of those who have been sanctioned developed INSTA lag soooooo many times that we are sick of them , and they were not reported first time that happend , more like the 10'th time
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - Knjaz - 06-12-2013
It's easy. Make sure to film other people on that video, with their pings shown. If there's only one having such issues, and his ping/loss/lag are not different' from others, thats self-explanatory.
P.S. As an example, here're 4 videos from uber.
1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h2NSDD-pQE
2)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lY-jqEpdww
3)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7QokoxKqoo
4)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqjlG12x37o
First and Fourth is pure cheating (especially last, on first one he didn't ping his target, and other folks are kinda far away - but there's no sudden noticeable "jumps" among them),
Second shows that not just his target was jumping all over the place, but also Eagle on his left (0:16-0:23). Either that Eagle was cheating as well, or server was lagging.
Third shows rather "light" jittering, can't say what it was. (but could be cheating, as well, since that neutral Sabre doesnt show such "feats").
P.S.2 - try to fight while GRN is fighting BAF in Leeds, with Outcast having event with IMG at same time, in Taus, and you'll likely notice lags even in 1v1 fight, with nobody around.
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - JIVA - 06-12-2013
@Anaximander: the important part is how does it look from the lagging persons perspective, not how it looks from the other ones. It is mainly about self control.
I do know how it looks from other persons perspectives as that one is usually explained by the victims. What is rarely objectivly explained is how it looks is likely to look from the persons perspective that is supposed to cheat.
For example:
I once, well over 2 years ago, had a pvp in Munich with 2 people on my side and 4 people on the other side inside the nebula to the north of the map.
I was fighting a guy that said he had developed a terrible lag while my ping and package loss was tolerable.
However the net effect was not jittering. The guy was sliding slowly in a straight line every now and then and was easily to be shot at. He did take all the damage that was done to him while he was sliding.
In other words, i do know that i was not lagging and no one else was at the time but him - and we all had a very easy time damaging him.
edit
first video : i cannot spot unusual stuff, but i only watched it once
second video : i see some erratic movements but freelancer always has poor accuracy when someone focusses on dodging alone
third video : yes, there is jittering
forth : same jittering and from what i read his ping was flawless? ( it looked like 56 or so with 0% loss )
To be honest, personally, i would not have suspected cheating in any of them had i met them, mainly because the snub dodging has always been too good for the weapons speeds and damage output
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - Anaximander - 06-12-2013
Easy, go to conn and stay there for a while. Test out different settings and ask other players you are fighting. That's what I did when I experimented with high fps, and never had a problem. EDIT: From your own perspective everything is super-smooth, except for screen tearing and other things generally associated with switching off Vsync. You'll have to ask those you are fighting if you want to be sure about the jitter.
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - n00bl3t - 06-12-2013
I should probably just let people kill me and avoid a sanction, since I'm from Australia.
It's a sad day when evidence can supposedly be obtained from 360p.
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - Tachyon - 06-12-2013
If you do not have sufficient experience to judge it, don't judge it.
The jittering is mostly, but not always (assumption), caused by extraordinary high FPS. You can check that by using Fraps' fpscounter (works without recording).
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - Evo - 06-12-2013
Same here nooblet, although I'm not from Australia. The server doesn't love me anymore, I personally have been receiving 5-25% lag or even higher for a month now. Same ping as before, anywhere from 130 to 160. While it quite sucks, I'm not going to pay $30 more a month to compensate for whatever exactly is going on with the server. If that means I get sanctioned, guess I'll live.
RE: the differences of lag induced gameplay - aerelm - 06-12-2013
There's a major difference between lags caused by connection issues, and jitters caused by high framerate.
Freelancer engine can't handle framerates higher than 180, and even getting close to that number starts causing problems. When a player is suffering from connection issues and has lag, with each registered movement the ship moves away from where it's supposed to be. It's a rather case-by-case basis as well and you can't draw a diagram of how it'd look like, since each weak connection would have its own individual lag pattern.
When people abuse high framerate to cause jitters, though, it doesn't throw their ship off course like lag does, and it pretty much just messes with freelancer's bugged-up targeting system. Ships with framerate jitters generally don't move away from where they're supposed to be, and the main difference with lag is the direction the ship itself is facing is the one effected by jitters, as well as rapid but very short warps when strafing.
Basically, with connection lag, the ship itself is more or less normal and only the movements are warped up, but with framerate jitter the movements are more or less normal and the ship itself is directly effected, which makes hitting jittering ships pretty hard, since no matter how accurate you aim, the confused targeting system can't get a lock on the ship and most of the shots end up going around the hitbox.
People don't seem to understand the difference. Connection lag cannot be avoided by anyone not living in Europe or using a weak connection, but framerate jitter is in each and every case done intentionally, because it cannot be achieved without altering graphic driver settings. Only the latter case is considered cheating and people with actual connection lags should not be concerned or feel threatened about it (Unless it turns out the lags are intentional, which is rather hard to prove and the player has to be a well-known repeat offender for him to get hammered).
Freelancer engine can't handle framerates higher than 180, and even getting close to that number starts causing problems. When a player is suffering from connection issues and has lag, with each registered movement the ship moves away from where it's supposed to be. It's a rather case-by-case basis as well and you can't draw a diagram of how it'd look like, since each weak connection would have its own individual lag pattern.
When people abuse high framerate to cause jitters, though, it doesn't throw their ship off course like lag does, and it pretty much just messes with freelancer's bugged-up targeting system. Ships with framerate jitters generally don't move away from where they're supposed to be, and the main difference with lag is the direction the ship itself is facing is the one effected by jitters, as well as rapid but very short warps when strafing.
Basically, with connection lag, the ship itself is more or less normal and only the movements are warped up, but with framerate jitter the movements are more or less normal and the ship itself is directly effected, which makes hitting jittering ships pretty hard, since no matter how accurate you aim, the confused targeting system can't get a lock on the ship and most of the shots end up going around the hitbox.
People don't seem to understand the difference. Connection lag cannot be avoided by anyone not living in Europe or using a weak connection, but framerate jitter is in each and every case done intentionally, because it cannot be achieved without altering graphic driver settings. Only the latter case is considered cheating and people with actual connection lags should not be concerned or feel threatened about it (Unless it turns out the lags are intentional, which is rather hard to prove and the player has to be a well-known repeat offender for him to get hammered).