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+---- Thread: Merging components on Vanilla ships (/showthread.php?tid=10570)
Merging components on Vanilla ships - mjolnir - 07-21-2008
Igiss came with the idea of merging all components on vanilla ships into a single one which would mean that all ships will be equally(less) vulnerable to explosives.
[color=#FF0000]Right now
All the vanilla fighters (Sabre, Titan, Avenger etc..) die to 1 nuclear mine, 1 sunslayer torpedo and take about 80% hull damage to 1 Cannonball missiles. For comparison non-vanilla ones loose 1/3 off hull to nuke (and all guns get yellow), same to sunlayer and take about 25% hull damage from a Cannonball.
Even more crazy is the situation when it comes to capships. For example the Kusari Gunboat dies to 3 Nuclear mines (3x 10k= 30k damage) even though it has 95k*2.5=237,5k armor.
The Osiris for example dies to one Nova Torpedo (46k damage) even though it has 340k*2.5= 850k armor!!
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I'm sure a lot of people (including me) would prefer to go the other way, but right now that seems to be above the skills of the modders here. And even if it's possible it would require an insane amount of work.
As more and more new ships are added in it seems that this move is necessary, since it's becoming more and more difficult to balance them compared to non-vanilla ones. Some of these new ships are also not just "stupid imports" but really nice ships. Since they need to be less vulnerable to explosives they need to be "worse" in most stats meaning less people fly them.
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So if all components will get merged into one these things happen:
- former vanilla ships will suddenly be much better than new ships. (due to more agility)
- fighter combat will take a lot longer
- missiles, torps and nukes will almost stop beiing used.
- capship will be ok, since right now they are balanced without taking explosives into consideration
- on the other hand the MK 2 Versions of vanilla ships (Wrath,Guardian, Avernger,Templar etc.) can get some slight changes on the model to look different
My ideas to counter the above points
1. Former non-vanilla ship should be slightly boosted in agility to the former vanilla ship levels. (if you go the other way bombers will become too good, this way they become worse vs fighters)
2. Explosives would need increased damage
to be more concrete:
Nuke mines - 20k damage instead of current 10k, they would take VHF shields in one shot then and would destroy some guns on first hit.
Sunslayer Torps
25k instead of current 14k
Cannonball missile
~6k instead of current 4.89
Firestalker missile
3.5k instead of current 2.4k
Sidewinder missile
4-4.5k instead of current 3.2k
This will make nuclear mines a bit more dangerous to capital ships yes... on the other hand right now it almost doesn't make any sense to use then since:
Against GBs most probably won't hit (since it moves a lot)
Against Cruisers and up they posses a much bigger danger to the fighter since they can be exploded by the capship and they do very little damage to the capship.
Capships missiles are probably going to be changed in one way or another (refire, ammo, energy...) so we should wait until those changes are made to decide the damage they should do.
Right now Kusari and Bretonian GB missiles blast off all guns(from a bomber) in some 4 hits, so a damage increase for them doesn't seem necessary.
EDIT: On the other hand if damage done by explosives is increased all component hitpoints might be increased too, so that only hull is increasingly affected.
Merging components on Vanilla ships - Zapp - 07-21-2008
All my fighters (less my Zoner RT that never fights) are vanilla and blow in one nuke. I'm all for this, in both counts (caps and fighters).
Merging components on Vanilla ships - SilentAssassin82 - 07-21-2008
I think its a pointless poll. Cause the answer should be simple. Either they all get merged or they do somthing about the non vanilla ships. And that we know already is too hard to do. So merge them i say.
And to add. Yes we could up the explosives. But seriously isnt the explosives situation bad enough now as it is.
I would prefare all ships to be Vanilla. but it just wont happen.
Merging components on Vanilla ships - Stoat - 07-21-2008
Merged on all. It's ridiculous having some ship that can be totalled so much quicker than others, when their stats are much the same. It's gonna make certain players even harder to kill, but what the hay......
Merging components on Vanilla ships - Jamez - 07-21-2008
Merge.
Merging components on Vanilla ships - Boss - 07-21-2008
Merge.
Also do those changes to the weapons.
Merging components on Vanilla ships - skoko - 07-21-2008
90% of my ships are fighters and 90% of them are Vanillas.... I like to fight in vanillas... also I am using explosives, and sometimes i kill myself, sometimes I kill enemy.. but that is thrill for me... Personally I wouldn't change anything, but I know many people wants to fly non-vanilla ships....
People like me who are using explosives would be hurt a bit... but then again we will just switch to different Torpedo/Cd weapon... If you boost explosives , people that fly capitals will be mad... Because IMO Capitals are weak as they are now. And if all vanillas become non-vanillas explosives will be less useful but still useful for stripping guns from other fighters...
Hmm.. this is hard one.. because if all vanilla become non-vanilla stats will be nerfed (Imagine BD HF in non-vanilla version, or Sabre) and again some people that appreciate agility (many) will be displeased...
So whatever you do there will be unhappy people... Now i voted to keep all the same as it is now...
EDIT: In the balance that exists now, vanillas have advantage in agility,speed and armor, If you could make that same balance when all ships become non-vanilla then do it... but then you loose on unique traits on each ship...
EDIT II: Pilots of vanillas are usually better pilots because they are on constant alert not to get hit by Nuke, Torp or missiles, and they dodge way better that pilots that are flying non-vanillas... (except me of course I am mine muncher)
Skoko
Merging components on Vanilla ships - Fletcher - 07-21-2008
Thank God, three of my five ships are Vanilla, and Nuclear mines are the bane of me sometimes, explosives rip me up...
Merge them.
Merging components on Vanilla ships - Panzer - 07-21-2008
Painful, but ends the matter of vanilla/new ship imbalance.
Merging components on Vanilla ships - mjolnir - 07-21-2008
' Wrote:I think its a pointless poll. Cause the answer should be simple. Either they all get merged or they do somthing about the non vanilla ships. And that we know already is too hard to do. So merge them i say.
The polls is actually a cheap way to get people's attention to the balance problems that will come from this. ;)
' Wrote:People like me who are using explosives would be hurt a bit... but then again we will just switch to different Torpedo/Cd weapon... If you boost explosives , people that fly capitals will be mad... Because IMO Capitals are weak as they are now. And if all vanillas become non-vanillas explosives will be less useful but still useful for stripping guns from other fighters...
I don't see how it will hurt caps.. right now explosives basically don't do anything at all to caps. If they get upped just slightly (as I proposed), they will still do close to nothing.
Quote:Hmm.. this is hard one.. because if all vanilla become non-vanilla stats will be nerfed (Imagine BD HF in non-vanilla version, or Sabre) and again some people that appreciate agility (many) will be displeased...
Yes it would actually favor bombers a lot, that's why I suggested upping the agility of non-vanilla instead.