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Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - Printable Version

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Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - aerelm - 02-14-2014

Note to Community: Even though the subject mainly concerns the dev team, it is nowhere even near my area of dev work, so technically I don't have a say in it. That means I'm neither a developer nor an admin in this thread, just some average rant-fueled player spitting out a wall-o-text cause he's bored. Please treat it as such.

Note to Pavel: Don't go all [color=#‌FF6600]Moving to proper subforum[/color] on this thread's arse. This thread is intentionally posted here cause it's a rant for the community, not an actual suggestion for the mod.

So... Unique ships. They used to exist, they used to be cool, and they used to be available for anyone who's worked hard enough for one, but then the players behind them left and they turned into a waste of mod space. Some later got re-SRPed by other players and some just died but still exist ingame. Team of developers, considering this whole process a problem, decided to take a stick and beat anyone who ever tried to push another unique ship into the mod. Some consider it a good thing, some consider it a bad thing.

The process was broken, no argue in that, but the broken part was not the premise of unique ships on its own, but rather the unanswered question of "what to do with those ships once the player has left". The process required a lot of InRP and ooRP dedication, and a lot of people enjoyed running into unique ships, so that part was not the problem, and so, I never agreed with complete removal of unique ships being the "right" solution. If it was up to me, I would've brought back the ability to request unique ships with a few adjustments to make the system actually work:
  1. It would have both InRP and ooRP requirements. InRP requirement being something along the line with having a better than "SRP standard" roleplay and a long-lasting character with 2 or more years of background developed both ingame and on forums. ooRP requirement would be getting all the work related to the implementation of the ship (model, hardpoint, hitbox, etc) already done before submitting the request, so it doesn't add to the workload of the team as much.
     
  2. Having the request go through a 2-layered SRP-like system. Player on the server would require to actually establish the character and properly roleplay the construction of the ship, then post a request which admins would review. If the request manages to pass, admins will forward it to the dev team. Dev team will re-review the request as well as run the model through whatever quality control system there is. The model will only be implemented once and if it's successfully passed through both filters.
     
  3. Designing a system which actually monitors and controls the whole process of unique ships, with actual "solutions" in place to handle the age old problem of inactive unique ships. This system would at the very least require:

    1. A limit on the max number of unique ship slots available at each point
    2. A "what to do with inactive unique ships?" policy
    3. A "what counts as 'inactive' unique ship?" policy
    However, such a system would also have three rather major problems:

    1. Request for a unique ship might pass but take a few months to be implemented (since it needs a mod update) and by then the one submittin it would no longer be as interested.
    2. The obvious workload it would add to the already-heavy workload of both devs (responsible for implementation of new models) and admins (responsible for keeping an eye on the activity of unique ships), even if we manage to optimize the process and lower it to the bare minimum.
    3. Would have to be limited to the official server, to ensure the monitoring is done properly, and this would be quite unfair for people who've developed their own plausible roleplay and deserve their own unique ship, but on another server.
     
  4. Having high enough requirements and standards for these ships would prevent over-spamage of unique ships, as only people who've been around long enough, worked on their roleplay hard enough and also have the model and all the implementation requirements already worked out would be able to request their unique ship, and only those with regular flight time on the server will be able to keep their ship (on that note - having a minimum flight-time in place for the ship would also mean factions would have an easier time requesting and keeping their unique ship). Mind you though, this should not be something like 50 hours a month on a single ship that would turn it into a second job, but a reasonable amount of activity which would clearly show the ship is actually around and has not gone AWOL.
     
  5. Related to #4, a system similar to the Player Faction IDs can be employed for handling unique ships. A "maximum number" for unique ships can be decided and placeholder ship entries can be added for those ships. This would easily make inactive unique ships recyclable and would make replacing them with new unique ships much easier, and so considerably reducing the workload as well as the mod size. The main issue pointed out with the old process of unique ships was "we cant delete inactive ones", and with this method, we easily can. Long as it's made clear that if the owner of a unique ship fails to satisfy the activity requirements after approval, the ship will be taken away, introducing "recyclable unique ships" should not cause any problems.
     
  6. Related to #5, defining a maximum number for unique ships has a major pro as well as a major con. Pro - It would prevent the system from going out of hand, i.e. we won't end up with a 200mb mod installer, 80mb of which is the files for unique ships. Con - It would cause a problem if the X number of slots are all filled, all active, and a new request comes around with a good enough time and effort put into it, which would mean either denying the request or forcing one of the existing ships out of the mod so it can be replaced with the new one.
     
  7. On the subject of the jealousy and the bad blood reintroducing unique ships might cause: This being the internets, that sort of behavior will always be around, but if the process is open to everyone who are willing to put in the required time and effort rather than limited to certain players, it should limit that type of attitude to the "unreasonable" bunch which can be easily ignored. Furthermore, on the subject of favoritism, elitism or objectionable decision-making, humans being humans, that will always happen to some extent, so completely removing it is unfortunately not an option, but employing a 2-layered system would reduce it to the bare minimum. In other words, we already have the SRP system which is also prone to both issues, but has turned out reasonably OK so far. There are some SRPs that some people don't agree with, don't like, or don't understand, but nothing stops them from getting their own SRP if the view on the matter is actually just.
I'm also gonna point something out already as I'm sure people will either ask about it or throw in some snarky comment related to it: Yes. I'm clearly biased when it comes to unique ships as I've had my own unique ship files ready for implementation and sitting on my hard drive for a few years now. Then again, why would any sane person actually write a pointless wall-o-text with no personal gain in it? On that note, knowing the current stance of the dev team toward unique ships, I never actually tried to push for it (The one time I simply hinted at the subject a few months back left me with a few good bruises that I still carry around), but seeing some of the existing unique ships getting recycled and people starting to play them again, makes me feel those of us who want our own unique ship and don't want to SRP one of the existing unique ships just for the sake of flying a unique ship* (trust me, there are at least a couple of other people who've had their own files sitting there for a while now) are being treated rather unfairly, and being punished for not being around back when "mwahaha" was good RP for a terrorist ID or getting a unique ship was a piece of piss**.

Just sayin.

* No offense intended to any current owner of any recycled unique ship
** No offense intended to any owner of unique ships or IDs dating back to that era



RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - sindroms - 02-14-2014

I remember discussing this topic on TS fairly recently, so here's my two cents on the matter.

Unique ships are a milestone. A part of the mod's history. So the person who got them has left. Does it give us the right to repurpose their work just because of it?

No.

Does it gives us the right to say that the ships are now a waste of space?

No.

They are the fruit of the effort put into them by the player back then. No matter how different the RP quality was back then. They are a milestone and should be treated as such, even if it is just out of respect towards that player. If the player has left, so be it. A single ship is not THAT big of a thing, when compared to the rest of the size of the mod. They have left something to remember them by. Who are we to change it or repurpose it or, even more so, call someone's RP obsolete or useless to the mod?

EDIT: As far as new ship requests go, I do not see any problem. I would not mind if there where many. I wouldn't mind even if they were above the balance norms, as long as the player using them fulfills their purpose. I'd say, to hell with limitations. If someone wants a unique ship for themselves and can pay the people putting it together both model and coding, not to mention provide some sort of usefulness to the mod itself, it is already a good thing.


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - Govedo13 - 02-14-2014

I must +1 here. I like the proposal/rant a lot, it is well thought and make a lot of sense.

I must also give another PoV.
Why we talk about unique ships as thing that belongs only to single person/player?
From my PoV it is a way more logical to have Faction Unique ships. Like the faction leadership is passed from one player to other the unique faction ship is passed to the newer generation of faction players. Using this model the activity issue of the said ship should not exist.

If the devs/admins/whatever that have the right to decide allow again unique faction ships this would fix two problems- first is the return of the said ships second is the bad official faction activity and the lack of official faction perks.
This bonus would stack up together with level 5 PoB bonus so there would be any real benefit to be part of the official faction instead indie player of the said faction.
If the unique ships are not official faction only then the official faction should have some advantage in the application process considering that they are more likely to keep the ship in-game for longer period of time compared to single individual.


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - HuggieSunrise - 02-14-2014

i think if you have the ability to make a ship.. the rp to back it up and the fact the dev teams worked with you on what they expect in order to put it in.. its should not be a problem.

I mean ive modded this game for a long time this is not hard to do. im not terribly smart either modding this game is easy, Time consuming yes.. but easy.

Unused material is a waste of space. this is a community project and all assets belong to those who are playing and having fun with those assets. Anyone who thinks that no one should have a shot at resurrecting the form with their own substance obviously hasn't been divorced before. or broken up before IE seen thier old girlfriend or spouse around in thier new life having a GREAT TIME as all you can do is sit there and stew.

Its the same petty jealous BS. Look at the devs who have put all this time to import models into this thing do they think every single ships thiers? do they get possessive?

Just cause its an srp or a unique ship doesn't make you any different from any other contributor to this mod. and i SWEAR TO CHRIST i have sent this EXACT message to cannon before.. that any contributions to the mod need to have the disclaimer that the additions are the mod s property forever so we can completely sidestep this silly ass question in the future.

I mean the morality of it isnt rocket science.. this goes for phooms and shit too. you guys think this is the only place that has these problems? opinions aside the damn phantoms ships ids and bases have been in there for years and unused by the official server on the gracious decision that 16 other disco servers MIGHT USE THEM. so id take a page from that. Graciousness and the ability to recognise ones efforts are greater when their given freely. Otherwise your not honoring the spirit of the mods origins or beginnings. as a group effort.


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - EisenSeele - 02-15-2014

(02-14-2014, 08:02 PM)sindroms Wrote: I remember discussing this topic on TS fairly recently, so here's my two cents on the matter.

Unique ships are a milestone. A part of the mod's history. So the person who got them has left. Does it give us the right to repurpose their work just because of it?

No.

Does it gives us the right to say that the ships are now a waste of space?

No.

They are the fruit of the effort put into them by the player back then. No matter how different the RP quality was back then. They are a milestone and should be treated as such, even if it is just out of respect towards that player. If the player has left, so be it. A single ship is not THAT big of a thing, when compared to the rest of the size of the mod. They have left something to remember them by. Who are we to change it or repurpose it or, even more so, call someone's RP obsolete or useless to the mod?

EDIT: As far as new ship requests go, I do not see any problem. I would not mind if there where many. I wouldn't mind even if they were above the balance norms, as long as the player using them fulfills their purpose. I'd say, to hell with limitations. If someone wants a unique ship for themselves and can pay the people putting it together both model and coding, not to mention provide some sort of usefulness to the mod itself, it is already a good thing.

I disagree with spazzy.

A unique ship is indeed a milestone to someone who is contributing to the mod, but a milestone dedicated in celebration to someone's contribution should only be valid as long as the person continues to contribute.

A ship is just a means to an end. Ultimately, it's just a tool to allow the player to make a story, which in itself may be fun, and may allow others who appreciate the story to have fun as well.

If a ship is unused, and inaccessible to anyone, that's just a tool which could be utilized but isn't - and in an environment that prizes variation and opportunity for new experience, such a waste is both unnecessary and detrimental to the community.

I'm not calling for the Necrosis to be sold on DHC bases everywhere, but I'm saying that if there are perfectly viable uses for a perfectly viable ship, to enrich the community with an entertaining and quality story - why should the sentiment of someone that's long since gone from an online game be reason to stifle a currently existing story from emerging in the way that the author wishes?


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - sindroms - 02-15-2014

But that simply boils down to whether your RP and your contributions belong to you or the community.
Just like the admins wanted to rebuild the Phantoms, even though the people who made them disagreed, even going as far as posting in that announcement thread.


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - EisenSeele - 02-15-2014

I'd think that RP contributions to a community lore belongs to the community in question - especially since anything added on to community lore is founded on, and only makes sense within the context of said lore - and made explicitly and exclusively for the enjoyment of others who follow the lore.

Take any faction, for example. The players dictating the RP of the [LN] or the .:j:. don't own the story of either faction. Have they changed the faction since its vanilla roots? Definitely. Have the leaders injected their own originality and creativity into changing the faction? Certainly. Can the leaders of either faction exercise the right to close down shop and restrict anyone from doing anything with the Liberty Navy or the Junkers? Certainly not.

Sure, the circumstances of vanilla factions like the LN and the Junkers is a little different from the circumstances surrounding factions like the Phantoms, the HF, or the Reavers - but if the concept of 'ownership' in the sense that the authors are granted indefinite exclusivity and authority over what happens to his or her "original content" doesn't extend to everyone that's injected their creative product into lore, then is it really a concept of ownership, or is it just a special case of sentiment?


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - aerelm - 02-17-2014

Kinda getting off-topic here gents.

Ownership of the written roleplay and ownership of the content added to the mod are two different stories. Only the latter is somewhat related to the subject of this thread, so please keep any discussion regarding the former to another thread.


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - Croft - 02-17-2014

Unique ships, those that are exclusive to only a handful of people tend to bring out a lot of jealousy and I think its fair to say a touch of elitism amongst those who wield such ships. Having one or two ships like that can make for interesting encounters for a short time until eventually folks get bored and those ships end up in mothballs, locked away from anyone who would try to restart that character or worse yet, try something different with it.
Each of those ships are connected with the character they were designed for, perhaps not in lore but by those who remember interacting with them and as such are inseparable. You couldn't see the Necrosis as the Outcast's flagship, it's reputation as a madman's weapon of destruction wouldn't allow it.

That brings us to the point of the matter, unique ships are good for a time but are extremely limited. However rare ships are an entirely different kettle of fish. Take a look at the Barge, it's just as noticable as the unique ships but it has none of their limitations. People RP it as a base, a mobile factory, a supertransport and even an entire company. If any ships are to be added, let's make them adaptable and useful, not museum pieces locked away by sentiment.
After all it's the character who defines the RP, not the ship.


RE: Pointless Rant On Unique Ships - EisenSeele - 02-17-2014

(02-17-2014, 11:07 AM)aerelm Wrote: Kinda getting off-topic here gents.

Ownership of the written roleplay and ownership of the content added to the mod are two different stories. Only the latter is somewhat related to the subject of this thread, so please keep any discussion regarding the former to another thread.

Sorry about that - it just seems that the main argument against allowing people to recycle unused unique ships seems to be that unique ships are the 'property' of the people for which the ships are made - which is a sensible stance, but it needs to be overcome if people are going to be happy about putting unused ships to better use.