Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay

Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - Printable Version

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Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - lIceColon - 03-26-2014

A friendly reminder to all: Read before you Reply. Every word has meaning.

If you are planning on conducting a bank robbery, you don't drive down the street with a big sign on your car that says "I am a bank robber".
If you want to smuggle something across the border, you don't fly a ship called Obvious Smuggler Ship MKII, instead you probably would mod an existing widely used inconspicuous ship to hold the good.
Crooks don't wear a big sign saying "I am a crook", the only way RL cops can identify a crook who is laying low is if he is dumb enough to carry an ID that matches his name, or if he matches the physical descriptions/ fingerprints etc.

So is there any alternative way to hide a pirate/smuggler/enemy's identity without breaking the gameplay?

Here are some I came up with:

Multiple IDs

Currently my line of thought is to allow a ship to carry multiple IDs which are literally inRP IDs, but if a ship carries none or conflicting or enemy or suspicious IDs and IFF combinations, and if the rules and rp allow it, then the inspecting ship may be allowed to engage them.

This way unlawful gameplay or any gameplay that requires a bit of stealth/deceit mey become more fun, I think.

edit: You will still only be able to mount 1 ID at a time, and each time you switch you will only receive the rep-hacks you normally receive when mounting the ID, and if you're say switching from Bret to Gallic rep, maybe you will be friendly with gallic lawfuls but gallic corps will still shoot at you, so it's not a convenient identity switch as you might think it would be.
Of course the main usage of the ID is to change the IFF and Rephacks, it itself being hidden under the scanner cloak. So it exists inRPly, just not obviously.

Consensual Scanning

The second idea I've came up with is a consent based scanning system could be developed, ie. every captain who wants one can install a scan deflector or something to maintain privacy. If just anybody wants to scan him and depending on the scanner and the deflector type, they would have to take 10-120seconds to keep within range, and depending on the deflector type the scanned ship may also be notified that they are being scanned either during or after the scan. On the other hand, if the captain gives consent by targeting the scanning ship and /consent, then the scanning ship will be able to scan him instantly.

This would not just add gameplay to police work, but also to pirates as they might have to risk wasting time on an empty transport if they hadn't scanned him properly first.

And of course, the privacy machine might be banned in certain factions but welcomed in others.

Also technology factions may have bonuses in scanning peoples.

Also, cloaks would be more useful as you might have to spy on someone to get a good scan.

And a new skill set would be added to Disco-FL in addition to pewing and RPing: Profiling.

Discuss my solutions, or any other alternatives.

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - Venture - 03-26-2014

You just said some of the upcoming features of star citizen in a nutshell, but It'll be cool to have such ID's and scanners/deflectors and such.

What I suggest is, an ID that can switch your identity from 'Pirate' to 'Citizen' and revert back to 'Pirate' if you did something stupid, like opening fire on LoLNS

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - 7AlphaOne1 - 03-26-2014

First Sad

deflector device)

due to the already low activity in the Omicrons, some people moved to smuggling. if such a device is introduced, then more and more smugglers will turn up, and only people in the omicrons will be nomad remain farmers/code hunters.

Second Sad

multiple ids)

since you say so, why dont you rp it, by making a spec ops id SRP? Multiple ids , however, doesnt cover the point. for example, a person signs up for the corsairs, with ship carrying outcast id as well as corsair id, it can be exploited. in Bretonia, according to rp, outcasts are not pewed, while in Kusari, Hogosha safegurad the corsairs. it causes an oorp ability to powertrade.

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - lIceColon - 03-26-2014

(03-26-2014, 12:21 PM)seven-alpha-one-one Wrote: since you say so, why dont you rp it, by making a spec ops id SRP?

The idea of a rule change is so that not everybody has to SRP something that could become normal. SRP is cumbersome.

Quote:Multiple ids , however, doesnt cover the point. for example, a person signs up for the corsairs, with ship carrying outcast id as well as corsair id, it can be exploited.

No it can't, because when you meet an outcast, he ask you why you have a corsair id and if you don't reply well, then boom you're dead. vice versa, corsairs demand to know why you have outcast id. You say you're a double agent but they can see that you are a trade ship and are just exploiting the IDs for powertrade, boom you're dead. You meet a hog and even though they are safequarding corsairs they are not safeguarding outcasts, so you will be suspicious to them. To every one else, not only are you a criminal but you are also a two-timer and you will become an easy target for everyone to shoot at.

Also, when I said 2 IDs, I mean you can still only mount one, so if you switch IDs you'll still have to pull a lot of strings to adjust your rep appropriately especially if you're switching to the enemy ID/IFF of your current rep. And pulling said strings would be expensive and time consuming, not particularly useful for powertraders. Unless you are willing to take all the risk and time to adjust your rep everytime, then you probably do deserve the profits you end up with because then you are inRP working to maintain your double identity which is easily busted the moment you are noticed/scanned.

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - Croft - 03-26-2014

Instead of the consensual scanning why not have a bit of kit that grants a high chance, around 80%, that scans will show up empty for a limited time. By empty I mean only the ship's name and infocard, no weapons, attached items or cargo will be displayed.
To balance it out I'd suggest it takes up a CM slot just so it doesn't become standard kit for everyone.

Having two ID's is open for massive abuse and waiting 20 seconds to scan someone would bore anyone to death. I can tell you from experience playing as police, scanning the TLAGs is almost 90% of what you do, adding more time scanning wouldn't add gameplay it'd probably be the final nail for the already unpopular police factions. Not to mention the effect it would have on piracy.

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - Mister_X - 03-26-2014

Didn't we try something like this with that "IDs are ooRP" rule when we had Freelancer IFFed pirates and it failed?

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - 7AlphaOne1 - 03-26-2014

(03-26-2014, 01:32 PM)Mister_X Wrote: Didn't we try something like this with that "IDs are ooRP" rule when we had Freelancer IFFed pirates and it failed?

exactly. what will keep someone from exploiting this?

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - lIceColon - 03-26-2014

Everyone, please read - and re-read before responding. Also keep in mind the purpose of this thread, it's not only to discuss my ideas, but ANY potential ideas for improving deception based gameplay

(03-26-2014, 01:09 PM)Croft Wrote: Instead of the consensual scanning why not have a bit of kit that grants a high chance, around 80%, that scans will show up empty for a limited time. By empty I mean only the ship's name and infocard, no weapons, attached items or cargo will be displayed.
To balance it out I'd suggest it takes up a CM slot just so it doesn't become standard kit for everyone.

I remember a similar idea being suggested in another thread, but the problem with chance is that you would have to rescan again and again and it would take waaaay longer than 20 seconds. What I could see however is a scan deflector as well as a scanner having a reliability rating in which there is a tiny (5% perhaps?) chance that the deflector fails to delay the scanning, or that the scanner fails to scan.
Also, precisely because scanning a protected ship takes a bit of time, smugglers might have a higher chance to evade detection as the space police might not be arsed to scan everyone.

Quote:Having two ID's is open for massive abuse and waiting 20 seconds to scan someone would bore anyone to death.

Which is why it's maybe 20 seconds, and also why I'm not a dev so I don't have final say, which is why this is a discussion thread.
Which is also why you as a libertonian police have the option to ask them to lower their scanner shields. And if they try to run or something then you might be able to shoot them.
Which is also why there are different scan deflectors, some delaying a scan longer than others. Powerful scanners such as the hacker or bs scanner would also significantly reduce scan time. And it would promote cooperation as you could have one cop with the powerful scanner monitoring tlagsnet and passing ships, reporting suspicious ships for the rest of the cops to go after.

Quote:I can tell you from experience playing as police, scanning the TLAGs is almost 90% of what you do

Which is why you have the option to approach suspicious ships that don't immediately return a scan.

Quote: Not to mention the effect it would have on piracy.

Which is what precisely?

(03-26-2014, 01:32 PM)Mister_X Wrote: Didn't we try something like this with that "IDs are ooRP" rule when we had Freelancer IFFed pirates and it failed?

Yea except that what I am suggesting is the exact opposite. See those words up there? READ before you respond.
I said specifically inRP IDs, like carrying different uniforms in a briefcase but only wearing one at a time, during which all the rephacks for that faction would apply including npcs from your former allies (who might be an enemy of your current apparent faction) shooting at you, etc.
Getting scanned would be like opening your briefcase in which everything is revealed.
Even in RL there are countries that disallow you to have multiple passports, and if you do have multiple or conflicting identities then you become suspicious.

(03-26-2014, 01:37 PM)seven-alpha-one-one Wrote: exactly. what will keep someone from exploiting this?

(03-26-2014, 12:38 PM)lIceColon Wrote: No it can't, because when you meet an outcast, he ask you why you have a corsair id and if you don't reply well, then boom you're dead. vice versa, corsairs demand to know why you have outcast id. You say you're a double agent but they can see that you are a trade ship and are just exploiting the IDs for powertrade, boom you're dead. You meet a hog and even though they are safequarding corsairs they are not safeguarding outcasts, so you will be suspicious to them. To every one else, not only are you a criminal but you are also a two-timer and you will become an easy target for everyone to shoot at.

Also, when I said 2 IDs, I mean you can still only mount one, so if you switch IDs you'll still have to pull a lot of strings to adjust your rep appropriately especially if you're switching to the enemy ID/IFF of your current rep. And pulling said strings would be expensive and time consuming, not particularly useful for powertraders. Unless you are willing to take all the risk and time to adjust your rep everytime, then you probably do deserve the profits you end up with because then you are inRP working to maintain your double identity which is easily busted the moment you are noticed/scanned.

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - Croft - 03-26-2014

(03-26-2014, 02:17 PM)lIceColon Wrote: I remember a similar idea being suggested in another thread, but the problem with chance is that you would have to rescan again and again and it would take waaaay longer than 20 seconds. What I could see however is a scan deflector as well as a scanner having a reliability rating in which there is a tiny (5% perhaps?) chance that the deflector fails to delay the scanning, or that the scanner fails to scan.
Also, precisely because scanning a protected ship takes a bit of time, smugglers might have a higher chance to evade detection as the space police might not be arsed to scan everyone.

I can't remember who suggested the idea in the first place but I think one of the solutions to the "mash scan" problem was to have a time limit on rescans. Personally I'd prefer to have the first scan made be the only result shown for 2 -5 minutes, regardless of how many times they mash the scan button. Having an inbuilt chance for error wouldn't hurt either.

Time is the one thing most folks don't seem to have sadly, the second being patience. Relying on the boredom of others isn't really a sound gameplay mechanic, we need to find a balance that makes it interesting for both sides.

(03-26-2014, 02:17 PM)lIceColon Wrote:
Quote:Having two ID's is open for massive abuse and waiting 20 seconds to scan someone would bore anyone to death.

Which is why it's maybe 20 seconds, and also why I'm not a dev so I don't have final say, which is why this is a discussion thread.
Which is also why you as a libertonian police have the option to ask them to lower their scanner shields. And if they try to run or something then you might be able to shoot them.
Which is also why there are different scan deflectors, some delaying a scan longer than others. Powerful scanners such as the hacker or bs scanner would also significantly reduce scan time. And it would promote cooperation as you could have one cop with the powerful scanner monitoring tlagsnet and passing ships, reporting suspicious ships for the rest of the cops to go after.

I've never played as liberty police and I usually try to avoid the place as a general rule.
Your idea sounds good on paper but in practice you'll find people just disregard the police factions and any requests made by them. The number of times I've been given the verbal finger when stopping someone smuggling or moving illegal items was what turned me off playing as the police. It shouldn't be that way, it sucks the fun out of the game but that's the way things are and I dare say they've gotten worse judging by the rapid decline of the factions.

Whenever you're dealing with a police concept assume two things, there's only one on at a time and no one will listen to a word they say.

(03-26-2014, 02:17 PM)lIceColon Wrote:
Quote:I can tell you from experience playing as police, scanning the TLAGs is almost 90% of what you do
Which is why you have the option to approach suspicious ships that don't immediately return a scan.

Unless the ship is heading towards you, there is little chance of catching anyone and even if you do, there's a good chance they'll simply F1 or instadock, Hone can tell you about that till the cows come home.

(03-26-2014, 02:17 PM)lIceColon Wrote:
Quote: Not to mention the effect it would have on piracy.
Which is what precisely?

Given that most pirates barely give you time to answer a demand, I hardly think they'll be willing to wait another 10 - 20 seconds to find out how much they can ask from you. Assuming they bother to check at all.

In a nutshell, we want to find a happy medium that doesn't involve long scan times or button mashing.

RE: Ideas for improving deception based RP/gameplay - lIceColon - 03-26-2014

(03-26-2014, 04:14 PM)Croft Wrote: In a nutshell, we want to find a happy medium that doesn't involve long scan times

I dunno. Cloaks have long cloak times, JDs have long charge times, all for the sake of balance, and people seem mostly okay with that. In fact, the time delay could actually make the scan more meaningful as you can't just scan everybody randomly anymore.

There would also be those Star Trek-ish RP moments when your ship reports that "they're scanning us" or "they're trying to scan us", if that is possible to implement, which I think would be pretty cool.

Besides you know what a long scan time offers? Interaction. eg. If a ship is trailing you you might be able to deduce that it is trying to scan you. Or you could try to delay a ship from leaving your scan range either with Cd's, or a straight up pursuit, all part of the fun, which scan times could actually offer. Also, yet another possible moneysink for people who want to scan faster.

Also, as I wrote earlier there should be different scan-deflecting and scanning equipment of different stats, so likely only people with something to hide would have one, and people who want to scan others would also have one. and perhaps the anti-scanning equipment could even use energy so if he is discovered and engagement happens the smuggler/enemy would be at a disadvantage.

Since only police and smugglers and privacy-buffs would have such equipment, normal interaction between players would just add a layer to the mystery so even though a normal civilian may be able to report a suspicious ship, he cannot for example instantly verify if the target is really a pirate or not.

It would also give pirates and smugglers and even spies (is there even spy RP in Disco? There should. Space James Bond sounds like pretty dope RP) more incentive to use civilian ships in evading capture.

All in all, the idea won't work if it is constantly being rejected or if people abuse it just because they said it would be abused. But if used properly, it could add another layer of depth (and fun) to the gameplay

As for why not just SRP it... because if you know a ship is SRP, you have to make the conscious decision not to metagame, which players may not abide by. When it is not SRP but just "the norm" there will be mystery, speculation and generally more immersion.