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+--- Thread: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm (/showthread.php?tid=130506)
The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Jack_Henderson - 06-12-2015
Heyhey!
I think that the complete bomber class is at the moment pretty bad, especially in group combat.
The more agile light bombers seem to do better (mainly by having more capability to stay in a fight longer), while the heaviest bombers (e.g. Thor, Waran) die incredibly fast and pitifully to pretty much everything that is not a battleship or Cruiser despite amazing botcounts.
Experience from large group fights (Bretonia-Sairs, Sairs-Core) has shown for me...
...that bombers are nothing but fast and free blue messages in group fights.
...that they are practically useless against any sort of fighter
...that bombers are practically useless against gunboats with small hitboxes (try and snac a Bnose or a Gallic Gb) while they suffer a lot under Primary and Solaris fire and just melt.
...that bombers are somewhat useful against bulky gunboats (Sair GB, Dragon GB), but 1 GB can keep everything below 3 bombers from doing much. Good gunboats need at least 3, more likely 4-5 bombers to beat it.
...that bombers do not even perform very well against Cruisers (Novas do not hit. Snac does not do a lot of damage) while Cruiser Solaris or even Razors are brutal because you have to go close for snaccing.
...that grinding down Battleships with bombers is rather pointless, as it takes ages and at some point a fighter will find you.
...that the only class of ships (light) bombers are good are: snaccing heavy bombers.
What is responsible for this change towards a bad class:
> fast projectile speeds on fighters (the change is good, but it affects the already limited dodging abilities of bombers massively). Bombers die very fast and contribute little to a group's effort during that time.
> TS & TZ
> bomber guns are a joke and have not been changed appropriately to the rest of pvp changes
I feel that the bomber class deserves some buff in general.
Bombers should in my opinion...
... become more survivable against fighters. Flying a bomber shouldn't be a safe "be out after like 2 minutes" bet.
... become useful against a special class (which they are not really at the moment, as the high damage Nova cannot hit anything but a battleship reliably).
... be less dependent on the Snac as a damage dealer
... have a buffed snac that allows for +100 or +200 m distance in shots (compared to now) in order to avoid being forced into very close range on every pass (which always drains bots or means insta when facing Razors). Would likely have to fly even faster to give a better chance at hitting GB from larger distance.
... have guns that are worth equipping (buff the projectile speed?)
I can understand the rock-paper-scissor argument, but that one says that there is a special class that you wreck and a special enemy that will wreck you. For bombers, I do not see the shipclass that they wreck, but I see 2 classes that totally annihilate it (GB and fighters).
It would be nice if the class could become something useful again, instead of a nieche class that can only be logged (and survive) when you have an enemy that only brings caps.
I'm curious what others think.
Jack
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Gulryz - 06-12-2015
I will disagree with you. I mostly fly bomber so have a lot of experience with them as you said Heavy Bombers die to everything except BS or crusires. Well if you know that their purpose is to fight heavy caps. Giving them turn rate like VHF will destroy balance, Light bombers are there to shoot small caps. Bombers are made to fight caps ONLY
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Traxit - 06-12-2015
Not really, Bombers are still snubs and should be able to take out other snubs, if the bomber is skilled enough. but making a Fighter not capable of killing other ships of his own class is just wrong.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Char Aznable - 06-12-2015
My experience with bombers is different from yours.
Yes, they're the first targets in a groupfight, because they have large damage possibilities while (in comparison to larger classes) being still able to dodge.
As with all snub-sized ships, Bombers are meant to fight in groups, not on your own, and especially not against fighters or Gunboats (fighters being, well, fighters, and GBs being technically thought as the flanking ships for larger caps, covering them from the bombers)
As for ingame represantation: Have you ever seen a pack of Umibozus killing a Valor? Yes, it takes long, but it's damn satisfying. Same with cruisers. Caps have literally no defense against a good team of 3-5 bombers. Gunboats more, but they're made for defending against small ships.
Buffing the range of the SNAC would be appreciated though, and the range of the Bomber Guns could be buffed as well. Both is not a pressing issue, though.
(06-12-2015, 12:52 PM)Traxit Wrote: Not really, Bombers are still snubs and should be able to take out other snubs, if the bomber is skilled enough. but making a Fighter not capable of killing other ships of his own class is just wrong.
So tell me why a B-17 should be able to stand a chance in a dogfight against a FW-190? Light bombers, you say, sure, but they're pretty decent in fending off snubs. Not good at it, but if you focus, you at least stand a fighting chance.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Geolog - 06-12-2015
If I'm not flying transports, which is 99% of time, I'm mostly flying bombers. The heavy bombers aka Waran and the rest are for shooting Cruisers and Battleships. And honestly they wreck those super fast. It's true they are fat and slow but I still manage to outdodge fighters, kill caps and dock or die after caps are dead. Heavy bombers are not for shooting GBs, light ones are for that and shooting big caps with snacs is not a problem because their fire can easily be avoided.
If the fight is big and enemy has many fighters then you bring light bombers. If they came with mostly caps you bring out heavy bombers. They should also be supported in fights with friendly fighters, that's one of the key elements of their survival. The bombers are very well balanced if used properly.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Shinju - 06-12-2015
What Geolog said, I really have no problem with Bomber class, no matter if Light or Heavy version.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - jammi - 06-12-2015
I honestly think this situation is fine. For the first time in... ever, fighters are able to do their jobs, in which 2 or 3 escorts can take down a bomber before it totally wrecks their battleships. In the past, killing a bomber took as long as killing an evading fighter, with them having the additional bonus of being able to periodically throw out SNACs and Novas.
Basically, if the enemy had two bombers present, it was inevitable that your capital ships would die before you could do anything to save them. Now, sufficiently skilled fighters stand a good chance of actually effectively screening as an escort. Bombers have vulnerabilities to fighters and gunboats. Yes. Duh. That is pretty much the sole purpose of those shipclasses. Bombers do the job they set out to do perfectly well, and are fun to fly in my opinion.
Things are working as they probably should do for the first time in years. That's a good thing.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - TheProphet - 06-12-2015
I'm inclined to heavily disagree that bombers, and especially heavy bombers are broken in any way shape or form. As people have mentioned already, yes in group fights you will be focused, but it's not because lolfreekill, it's because a Nova bomber vs a ball of snubs, or a few caps can be a nightmare for the opposing side. The onus at that point is on the bomber pilot to be skillful and dodge. It's not impossible, it's not even too hard, it's exactly like it needs to be.
I don't want to repeat what Geolog said, but I'll add that in smaller engagements (anything non raid, basically) I've seen people reliably outmaneuver heavy fighters and shoot down transports and caps. In addition, it really isn't impossible to kill a snub with a Nova or a SNAC shot. Literally all it takes is skill and patience.
Source: I fly a lot of snubs, but the ship I spend the most time on is my Challenger.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Karst - 06-12-2015
Disagreed on almost all points.
No, bombers absolutely should not last longer against fighters. Yes, they will quickly in a group fight with fighters.
But how about a bomber attacking a transport while the fighter escort shoots it? They generally have 100+ bb. They already last faaaar too long against lone fighters.
I don't see the point in buffing the range on the SNAC. It already has 1 600, a distance at which all you'll be hitting is battleships (if even). Buffing speed meanwhile will drastically increase the danger fighters are in. Average fighter pilots will be without a chance against good snackers.
Have guns worth equipping: yes, this I agree with. I also believe Haste had something planned in this direction.
RE: The Bomber Class - Opinion: Bombers are just too bad atm - Yber - 06-12-2015
Jack, not so long ago you were complaining that bombers take forever to kill with fighters.
Moving on, the problem is zoom. Gunboat guns are already good enough so that you can hit with them reliably without any sort of autoaim (the ridiculous 1300m/s for basics plus instakilling guns with 600m/s). Either nerf the speed of the guns or disable zoom. Autohit weapons with autoaim is dumb.