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+--- Thread: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? (/showthread.php?tid=175633)
Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Enkidu - 12-22-2019
Do people know how to submit content suggestions, along with creating content submissions?
Frequently I see discussion threads with ideas. But that's not how ideas get implemented. I've been here since 2012 and I've seen only four instances where a discussion thread, by itself, made an ingame change. By contrast, I've seen numerous discussion threads that then budded out into a content request, which then resulted in ingame change. People then become frustrated when their discussions don't make it into the game, or don't appear to reach a dev dialogue. It's usually because the request system isn't being used.
The same applies to story developments, etc. Frequently there are situations where a group of the community views a certain development as logical, but there isn't much evidence that any content request was made from the discussions on the topic. Then that group of the community feels, understandably, frustrated when a different outcome occurs with the next update.
Are people using these subforums? I've privately had positive experiences with making effective change using the content request/submission system. They seem to be a bit under-utilised by the community.
What would help people understand, and use, these systems more effectively? Should there be a tutorial thread for content requests, so that people know how to format, and evidence their requests in a way that will allow them to make the changes they want to see?
Remember:
Discovery mod Development Requests
and
Player requests
are actively read by GMs and Devs.
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Alestone - 12-22-2019
Personally, I have always felt the fact that the an end result that directly contrasted with published RP and discussion showed that the DevMin team is disconnected from the community they serve.
I understand that a process for a request makes it easier, but, if you are so nose in the air that you refuse to do anything that doesn't come through your process, is it really any surprise that you are alienating your customers?
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Enkidu - 12-23-2019
(12-22-2019, 04:13 PM)Chance Wrote: Personally, I have always felt the fact that the an end result that directly contrasted with published RP and discussion showed that the DevMin team is disconnected from the community they serve.
I understand that a process for a request makes it easier, but, if you are so nose in the air that you refuse to do anything that doesn't come through your process, is it really any surprise that you are alienating your customers?
I feel people aren't aware how long it takes to edit anything in Freelancer.
It's hard. The devs are working with quite dated tools that sometimes stop working for no apparent reason whatsoever. Freelancer is also extremely intolerant of faults and will crash everything if even one minor detail is out of place.
None of the developers are paid for this either. There isn't a staff member with a role specifically to trawl through discussion threads for ideas, either.
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Alestone - 12-23-2019
I understand that the DevMin team are unpaid volunteers. That said, none of the points you made, while true, are pertinent.
First, they Are volunteering. Pointing out that they are unpaid implies that they are being compelled when your own OP disproves that.
Second, development always takes time; most creative processes do.
Finally, your use of "trawling" is rather telling in terms of validating my opinion that there is still a disconnect. The "us and them" mindset has been one of The problems since before I started playing here. The only difference now is in who quantifies in each group.
I get that throwing the whole story-line out into public ruins it, but not only ignoring, but chastising, the players for not conforming is a large part of why people don't stay.
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Karlotta - 12-23-2019
My view:
(08-01-2019, 05:35 PM)Karlotta Wrote: Yesterday (and also over a year ago) some people hinted that unless something is submitted in the player request subforum, it is likely (or even destined by standard staff procedure) to get ignored by the staff, even if it's a suggestion that everyone seems to agree to in the discussion forums.
This isn't really mentioned anywhere on the public forum, and it seems more like a back door through which those "in the know" can get their ideas, suggestions, or demands in more easily than others.
That also seems to go for things that affect the entire community and not just the player posting the request, such as rep hacks for an entire ID, removals of an entire ID, things that are meant to benefit new people and not the person submitting the request.
The later two points are problematic for several reasons:
- People who aren't aware of this will get frustrated why their seemingly good suggestion is being ignored by the staff
- Useful ideas will be overlooked by the staff
- Submitted ideas can not be viewed by a large number of people, who could have better ideas or ways to improve them even more
- Posts can get lost by forum glitches or misclicks, or by forgetting whether they were already submitted or not
- People wont know why someone else's request was rejected will submit the same thing again
It therefore seems desirable to:
- Have at least one "player request" subforum that is not invisible, for requests that affect more people than the person submitting the request.
- Give reasons publicly for why something was rejected
- Explain the mechanism for submitting such requests (more) visibly on the forum
In response to the "question" in the OP:
From experience, the "go file a player request" is just like the "go file a rule violation report" phrase dropped every now and again.
It expresses that staff are about to:
- Make their decision in secret and anonomously, and are not not willing to give the reasons for their decision
- Keep the request and all the information withing a secret from the rest of the community
- Keep the process as obscure as possible to keep outsiders in the dark
- Will use outsiders "ignorance" of the process, of knowing who in the staff voted for what, and of the reasoning the staff has, as a leway when it suits them later
- Assure themselves the possiblity to totally ignore any sort of logic and argument that may be thrown at them for their decision.
I'd like to add that the mere fact that you're even asking the question makes you look like you havent been paying attention, like, at all, to what has been going on between staff and community for the last 10 years.
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Enkidu - 12-23-2019
(12-23-2019, 01:47 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I'd like to add that the mere fact that you're even asking the question makes you look like you havent been paying attention, like, at all, to what has been going on between staff and community for the last 10 years.
Karlotta, we're all getting older. Take people at face value.
- People who aren't aware of this will get frustrated why their seemingly good suggestion is being ignored by the staff
Would be the purpose of this thread.
- Make their decision in secret and anonomously, and are not willing to give the reasons for their decision
Every time I've asked for an explanation for a rejected request I got one. What are your experiences?
- Keep the process as obscure as possible to keep outsiders in the dark
It's a vote of people within the relevant implementation teams. Ameliorated by IRL availability of those people to vote and implement.
- Will use outsiders "ignorance" of the process, of knowing who in the staff voted for what, and of the reasoning the staff has, as a leway when it suits them later
That smacks of conspiracy. It's a game.
- Keep the request and all the information withing a secret from the rest of the community
Nothing is stopping people from talking about what they've requested. The request subforum is secret to prevent people starting drama over other people's ideas, and also to allow people the element of surprise, prevent metagaming, there's numerous reasons.
- Assure themselves the possibility to totally ignore any sort of logic and argument that may be thrown at them for their decision.
There is a minority within this community who equate 'logic' to 'things that make me angry'. They are surprisingly not the majority playerbase of the game. Which is why we have a request system, and not a development process based on discussion threads. So it has been, for the last ten years. You know that too, Karlotta, you've been here as long as me.
What is the root cause of people not using the request system?
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Nika - 12-23-2019
It is not too hard to put a couple of brain cells together to go ahead and discuss what it is you want implemented with at least one person from the dev. team before you put a single bit of effort into it, be it roleplay or in-game activity: i have no desire to have my and my faction members' efforts wasted, so i do, in fact, use the request system but do some ground testing prior to doing anything to see if it's even possible, and consult almost every step of developing these plans. That's how Madeira upgrade came to life, that's how the salvaging of Freeport 4 and Cardiff came to reality.
If you would actually bother to put aside whatever stops you from having an actual dialogue with the staff, even if using one of it's members as the mediator it would have lifted all the frustration from seeing what you wanted to implement denied because the staff thought it have lacked something to exist in the mod.
That is all i have to tell to you. From there on - think for yourselves.
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Alestone - 12-23-2019
Quote:It is not too hard to put a couple of brain cells together to go ahead and discuss what it is you want implemented with at least one person from the dev. team before you put a single bit of effort into it, be it roleplay or in-game activity: i have no desire to have my and my faction members' efforts wasted, so i do, in fact, use the request system but do some ground testing prior to doing anything to see if it's even possible, and consult almost every step of developing these plans. That's how Madeira upgrade came to life, that's how the salvaging of Freeport 4 and Cardiff came to reality.
I can only speak of the past in this regard, since I have had nothing to modify since returning, but, that said, you still have to get someone to talk to you which leads to my next quote.
Quote:- Will use outsiders "ignorance" of the process, of knowing who in the staff voted for what, and of the reasoning the staff has, as a leway when it suits them later
That smacks of conspiracy. It's a game.
- Keep the request and all the information withing a secret from the rest of the community
Nothing is stopping people from talking about what they've requested. The request subforum is secret to prevent people starting drama over other people's ideas, and also to allow people the element of surprise, prevent metagaming, there's numerous reasons.
- Assure themselves the possibility to totally ignore any sort of logic and argument that may be thrown at them for their decision.
There is a minority within this community who equate 'logic' to 'things that make me angry'. They are surprisingly not the majority playerbase of the game. Which is why we have a request system, and not a development process based on discussion threads. So it has been, for the last ten years. You know that too, Karlotta, you've been here as long as me.
Quote:clique
noun
noun: clique; plural noun: cliques
a small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them.
This "game" has always had cliques in charge, and using denigrating terms such as the way conspiracy was applied doesn't change the fact. There are conspiracies in this community, it is just that not all of them are harmful.Each of the Official Faction is ruled by a conspiracy/clique, but they Tend to communicate with the players.
As to the dismissal of "logic", I want nothing from the keepers right now, but your bandwagon argument is still offensive. There was a lot of outcry with the last batch of changes, and the arguments have been ignored wholesale. Conflating the fact that people don't like something with a lack of logic is a variation of your own dismissal. It also presumes that you are universally "right".
As to talking about your requests in a public forum, that is entirely different from the dialog that makes a decision. It is also obvious that you know that fact in your dialog, so your statement can only be concluded to be intentionally disingenuous.
I have to wonder, with the amount of effort you are putting into this, are you acting on their behalf or about to resume being part of the team?
RE: Do people feel comfortable using the content request system? - Enkidu - 12-23-2019
(12-23-2019, 02:07 PM)Chance Wrote: As to talking about your requests in a public forum, that is entirely different from the dialog that makes a decision. It is also obvious that you know that fact in your dialog, so your statement can only be concluded to be intentionally disingenuous.
I have to wonder, with the amount of effort you are putting into this, are you acting on their behalf or about to resume being part of the team?
I'm curious as to why people don't use the request system more. @"Ironblood" put it quite well. That's why I made this thread. It gets the results that people want to see in discussion threads.
If people did it more they would have fewer reasons to view the system as frustrating and intransparent, as the system would be more transparent.
Full disclosure.
I'm a community contributor. Effectively, I'm a normal member. I'm in an unrelated capacity a 1ic, but I got there the same way any other 1ic did; running an OFL group. I do limited Infocard development work, but I am not a developer. My submissions are edited by the devs.
As a member, I submit content to the devs for editorialisation, rejection, or implementation. Anybody can do this. I use the same systems you can use, and anybody else can.
Because of that, I'm wondering why people arn't submitting content requests more frequently. It does make changes. Are people uncomfortable using the system? Basically a discussion thread is a great place to get the community's idea for a change, but it's more effective if it's backed up with a change request.