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+--- Thread: Non combat vessels in combat situations (/showthread.php?tid=28419)
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Non combat vessels in combat situations - 11of10 - 10-18-2009
I would like to hear your oppinions folks:
Quote:I remember, specifically, that somebody got sanctioned/warned for having a capital ship in the same chat group with him while pirating, and the capship being few systems away.
On the other hand, we have an Apocalypse Now firing on a transport vessel, for which it's quite oorp (in my opinion, at least), to order a capital ship (apo, or somebody else, mentioned something about a juggernaut and a talon. maybe i'm wrong, never saw it myself) to attack another capital ship, with which it is in the same group.
I am not trying to stir up anything, just that I remember, Hoodlum specifically, mentioning that it is wrong to be in the same group with pirates pirating, if you are flying a capship, since the pirates can't pirate, as you are considered pirating with them. Which would then, by that logic, make that transport a legitimate target, correct?
I agree it is completely crazy to attack a transport in a battleship, when it is fair play that we're looking at.
<strike>But, with regards to that particular situation, that I have mentioned before (piracy), and the fact that the role playing Colonel Kurtz would make him must do some terrible things, in order to manage (just remember the part about cutting the hands off, and him being fascinated by the will to do something in order to win, no matter how discusting it was)... would it not actually be bad RP for him not to first obliterate the softest spot of the enemy? </strike>
[/s]I realise that Apocalypses are having a stigma of OORPers and being capfest and ganking and whatever... but, when you tell me that it's OORP for a battleship to call to a bomber to intervene on behalf of some transport, instead of opening up on it, that's your ego talking, wishing it had a fighting/running chance, instead of facing a grave injustice. [s]
In combat, the only thing you value is lives of people on your side, and time to react. So, in a hostile situation, that is, having another BBs big guns looking at you, would you not just do it yourself, and shorten the command chain needed to react? Well, yes, he could ignore it completely... but when there's a commanding officer on board another ship, you first go for the head, the nerve cluster, the brains... right?
Thank you for reading.
This is not meant to be a trial by forums, nor it is directed against anybody in particular. If some of you recognise yourselves in some of the situations described here, consider that this is a research post, not meant to offend anyone. So, with a clear and cool head, analyse everything, think about it, and then post.
Please, if you have any flames to direct to this thread, DO NOT POST!
Constructive thinking only people, please. Let's see if we can enhance our overall RP experience aboard Discovery.
Thank you
Non combat vessels in combat situations - Jinx - 10-18-2009
in the past ( or even in the present ) - there are situations that pvp immune players can still be shot, shot down or intentionally targetted.
for example - when a lvl10 starflier flies into a battlezone where several heavy ships or even capital warships dish out damage. - it is his own fault when he gets shot down. - by flying into a warzone - he became a valid target - as ... and so the argument: - "a civilian would not fly into such a place"
now - if we transfer that to a transport....
a transport being in a warzone should enjoy the same treatment - for one, it is not really likely that a transport has declared someone "hostile" and still sticks around - usually he d be legging it away asap. - if he s still around and even activly assisting the attack of ships that are an actual danger - it is a behaviour that earns himself to become a valid target.
the basis question is - what is a decent and believable behaviour for a transport? - would a transport activly give away tactical informations ( in a way that the hostile player can see it ) - when he is in immanent danger? - it would need to be a very hardened and daring captain for sure.
the other question is - would a warship target the transport that if there are more dangerous ships around? - probably not.
when we take the term "non-combat" vessels literally - such vessels try to stay out of combat - and that would include any involvement in combat ( giving away tactical informations, taunts - etc. )
* the difference between the two incidents is - one can be considered an accident, the other an intentional kill. - however...
there were also admins that stated that - if a starflier got too annoying - one could accidently drop a mine - which happens to seek out a random target ( which by coincidence might be the starflier ) and blows it up. - while not official - still stated as an alternative.
now the problem is - it is a kill, it is intentional - and the player killed was protected by the rules in an ooRP way ( much like transports are protected from capital warships, which has nothing to do with RP and all with ooRP )
the real difference is a fine line - and much up to interpretation. in my opinion - a transport that is activly assisting other players to score a blue message is de facto involved in pvp - and should these other ships drain my shields by 50% - ( no ... i d not fire on the transport, cause i know its not allowed ) but i d get really really angry about the silly rules.
** the above does not describe how recent events happened, but only a hypothetical event, cause only those that were involved know how it really happened, and i dare say - even the ones involved have a somewhat twisted point of view.
Non combat vessels in combat situations - jimmy Patterson - 10-18-2009
you ask me a transport tells somebody to shoot me i see him a threat and act acordinydly the rule should reflect that its like a navy ship ignoreing a guy in a life raft with a walkie talkie ordering his downed pt boats escourts to torpedo the naval destroyer the attacked destroyer would send somewbody to arrest him or probly just squirt him with a machine gun and be done with it
as alltho he is now a non combatant as his ships destroyed he is stil lgiveing tactical orders that jeprodize the destroyerand therefore is nullifying the facyt he is now a Non-Com
Non combat vessels in combat situations - Athenian - 10-18-2009
If the rules are changed to allow destroyers to attack transports, then people will buy destroyers and attack transports. There are enough exceptions to the rule listed to permit some degree of realism, but realism has nothing to do with it. However, I'll indulge you. A destroyer in real-life would send out a small boat to intercept a light craft. Coastguards generally use what we'd call gunboats.
We don't need to change this rule because someone managed to create a situation where a transport ship (an anarmed one at that) was involved in role-playing with a battleship and spoke in a manner the battleship mightn't have appreciated. The battleship could do a lot of things - ignore the transport. spoken to it, threatened it after the fight with the other ships, but shooting it?
Non combat vessels in combat situations - Colonel.Tigh - 10-18-2009
right, lets all use Zoner Whales as Commandships.
If the Transport pilot roleplays as a hostile in a battle, hes a legit target, haveing no guns should be no excuse.
Non combat vessels in combat situations - jimmy Patterson - 10-18-2009
fairs fair just edit the rule to something " if a transport makes a dilibrate hostile act visable to its target the vessel in question may act acordingly in extream circumstances(ie ships life at stake) said transport may be engaged in self defence"
or something like that and just sanction the ones that abouse it for piracy n such
Non combat vessels in combat situations - Athenian - 10-18-2009
' Wrote:haveing no guns should be no excuse.
I lolled. Long and hard.
Only Zoners can fly Whales anyway. Perhaps we will see Zoners leading invasion forces. Zoner rebellion anyone?
Quote:" if a transport makes a dilibrate hostile act visable to its target the vessel in question may act acordingly in extream circumstances(ie ships life at stake) said transport may be engaged in self defence"
Hostile act? Like what? Speak?
Extreme circumstances?
What kind of a threat does a Zoner whale pose? Aside from being a challenge to one's imagination.
Non combat vessels in combat situations - jimmy Patterson - 10-18-2009
you fail to see the point... just by even saying "attack xxx now" you automatiyl declare yourself hostileas your the ringleader of the attacking group (unless your being shot at inwhich case your demanding help)
the whale yelled for apoc now to be fired on and as apocnow probly thought he was what kept the attacking group organized he "cut the head off the viper" its prefectly reasonable and i stil lfeel the rule should be written as such transports should only be ordering escourts and the battleship wasent a threat to the zoner at the start the zoner made himself a threat by ordering an attack on the battleship
Non combat vessels in combat situations - Colonel.Tigh - 10-18-2009
' Wrote:What kind of a threat does a Zoner whale pose? Aside from being a challenge to one's imagination.
It does not mather if the ship can harm you with weapons to be a threat, as i said (while you loled) a Transport can be missused under the cover of "oh you cannot harm me, sancshuuuhn"
So if a non combat ship (or a zoner whale) enters a warzone or an battle, and roleplays there, he is a traget as everybody else.
In RP he could be spying, collecting sesor data, commanding the enemy fleet, whats lol is, haveing ships imune to PvP, thats lol.
Non combat vessels in combat situations - Athenian - 10-18-2009
' Wrote:It does not mather if the ship can harm you with weapons to be a threat, as i said (while you loled) a Transport can be missused under the cover of "oh you cannot harm me, sancshuuuhn"
So if a non combat ship (or a zoner whale) enters a warzone or an battle, and roleplays there, he is a traget as everybody else.
In RP he could be spying, collecting sesor data, commanding the enemy fleet, whats lol is, haveing ships imune to PvP, thats lol.
what's lol is that you think the only possible way of dealing with this is the fire button that's what's lol
Hmm, maybe we ought to drop the level 29 thing while we are at it.