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+--- Thread: Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic (/showthread.php?tid=41007)
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - CzeReptile - 06-01-2010
Meow.
I am owner of 4 battleships for a weird reason. Now while this has been discussed so many time that I lost count, here we go again.
Flak turrets obviously work on short distance. Primaries against bombers, well do they suck. Yes. Rest has no range to oppose sniping bomber.
now we all love using relevant RL examples here, so let me use one too for some fun. WW II battleship would never die to 2 bombers (unless you drop 1000kg bomb into munition), and would most likely have sufficient firepower to scare them away without taking damage. Now in Discovery, 2 bombers, worth some 40 million each, can ditch any capital ship, ranging prizes from some 50 million to almost 2 billion. Also, sniping in bomber require imo little to no skill, ganking BS with 3 bombers is guaranteed death unless you are really dumb to fly close, while 3 BS never kill single bomber if they gank him. And besides of quickly dying in combat, capital ships have no real purpose imo. And I own six such. Mindless grind for money only to be blown away by 2 small flies.
Now I got idea if it is possible - make a gun to compensate the total inability of battleship to oppose bombers. some 2-2.5k ranged gun that - when fired, makes a distance calculation to target and shell explodes on the said distance, similar to flak, but just aimable. Low energy too so they can create a wall of explosion to prevent bombers from reaching distance without being in danger. You can still take on the BS from the sides. About that is it.
I just hate to see precious battleships die to puny bombers. Do not give me bullz bout escorts. Most people dont have faction to fly with them everytime they want to pull their cap out. Dont give me dont buy cap bullz. Some people just want, like you do your bombers. Respect that. However the balance issue is not there imo. Caps have been nerfed to point where they are only big targets. Bigger cap makes bigger target. Get a billion worth ship. Meet 2 bombers. Or even 3 VHF. Die. Fail. try again. LOSE FUN.
howg
blame me!
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - Prysin - 06-01-2010
reptile, a correction
in WWII you could sink a destroyer with ONE dive bomber attack...
if anything, give flak less damage pr shot and 2.0 refire....
or BUFF solaris refire and secondary refire.... its more then enough
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - tansytansey - 06-01-2010
Battleships are not supposed to be epic pwn machines that can wipe the floor with every other ship in the game. They are supposed to be weak to Bombers.
Battleships are not supposed to fly solo, they are supposed to fly in fleet engagements against other fleets of ships.
Bombers are supposed to be able to tear the crap out of a lone battleship without much hassle.
Giving Battleships better defenses only strengthens the mind set that people have of Battleships being the 'ultimate ship'
No,
I say remove Flak and Solaris from Battleships altogether to make it clear they are not built for anti-bomber/fighter defense. Give Flak to Cruisers and give them decent Solaris instead, making Crusiers better and defending themselves and allied Battleships.
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - CzeReptile - 06-01-2010
While I agree that the screening ship idea is what discovery lacks, let me reply to couple point of yours Ashes.
' Wrote:1.Battleships are not supposed to be epic pwn machines that can wipe the floor with every other ship in the game. They are supposed to be weak to Bombers.1. They are not close to being a battleship. If you can fly, only thing you can really challenge with battleship is another battleship. Decent cruiser pilots and lower can wipe floor with battleships. I believe there is a reason for BS to cost so many much times more then the fighter or bomber. I do not want ultimate pwn ship in the game. For that, adding thruster is sufficient to battleship and voila. I am more reffering to ability to battleship to defend itself.
2.Battleships are not supposed to fly solo, they are supposed to fly in fleet engagements against other fleets of ships.
3.Bombers are supposed to be able to tear the crap out of a lone battleship without much hassle.
Giving Battleships better defenses only strengthens the mind set that people have of Battleships being the 'ultimate ship'
No,
4.I say remove Flak and Solaris from Battleships altogether to make it clear they are not built for anti-bomber/fighter defense. Give Flak to Cruisers and give them decent Solaris instead, making Crusiers better and defending themselves and allied Battleships.
2. As I stated, you cannot get always a screen of ships to fly with you. Even after that, it only attracts bigger bomber spam. Ive witnessed it lots of times in Taus, Ransuer with Storta / tridente cover just dies as well, since we focus down the smaller ones an then snipe big from distane. BAttleship itself is zero usefulness in such engagement.
3. Bomber tear the crap out of anything. And frankly, given their size, hull and prize, they should be the sort of ultimate ship. Not the bombers. They are pwn enough with SNAC already. Swarm of bomber is one thing, but two bombers slaughtering cap 8 battleship, thats different story That should not happen at all. But eh, it happens always.
4. Would be neat and give cruisers a purpose. Or give battleships better AA armament. If we keep reffering to older ones, they had such guns too. They could hit bombers from distance where bombers couldnt. Now its turned around. No matter how much and big guns you can fit on battleship, with only single player to operate it, it does not matter if you got some tactical sense and dont fly straight.
I agree on some points, but really battleships are second most useless class of ship on the server. If people hate them so much and nerf them even more, what is the point of having them? To RP? What RP is that? Imma go shoot you?
I have seen several caps RPing (Seth onboard LN dread, or LSC Fires of Liberation), but presence of such ship only attracts bomber spam. And really, no matter how big escort you get, equally big bomber squadron tears you apart.
Hell my cap 8 Zephyr lost battle to group of sabres. And it had full solaris. Now that aint a balance. To refer to your point 3 - anything can tear up lone battleship. And seeing fighters do it, it is sad.
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - SeaFalcon - 06-01-2010
My experience in my own private mod:
Make long range high refire rate and high speed guns. lets say the same 2 to 2.5k range. refire rate 4.00 not that much energy but add disperse. Bomber if flown right can still bomb at 3k range. but when they make a small mistake and they get swarmed with lots of projectiles.
And if you like add a small explosion when the projectile hits 2k to 2.5k range.
when you use this kind of guns you get this effect to a bomber strike:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roG7gLBffG0
Although it might be just to much flak ^^
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - mjolnir - 06-01-2010
BS defense guns are getting changed with the new turret classes.
The idea of long range flak was suggested already, but I didn't get to test properly. As of now I don't know how to avoid the issue of this flak beeing very deadly at short range. If it simply has high muzzle velocity (2k) and proximity fuse it would blast ships that are at shorter ranges extremely well.
' Wrote:Bomber if flown right can still bomb at 3k range.
How? Medium size BS (Bretonian, LN), can strafe from any SN fired from above 1.3k.
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - CzeReptile - 06-01-2010
' Wrote:BS defense guns are getting changed with the new turret classes.
The idea of long range flak was suggested already, but I didn't get to test properly. As of now I don't know how to avoid the issue of this flak beeing very deadly at short range. If it simply has high muzzle velocity (2k) and proximity fuse it would blast ships that are at shorter ranges extremely well.
How? Medium size BS (Bretonian, LN), can strafe from any SN fired from above 1.3k.
Hate to argue Mjolnir, but battleships SHOULD be that much deadly at the close distance. Despite im rather new with the gun stuff, maybe I could try to take a look and see, but thats just a hunch. Couldnt the fuse for this matter be set to explode only after certain distance?
Uh and to the strafing BS. Single SNAC, maybe, two bombers = no. And it always depends if you see the SNAC, speed, heading, etc.
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - mjolnir - 06-01-2010
' Wrote:Couldnt the fuse for this matter be set to explode only after certain distance?
I don't know how yet, the first solution I thought of for this didn't work.
Maybe in the end making some guns with 4-5 refire and medium dispersion will kind of achieve the same effect yes.
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - CzeReptile - 06-01-2010
Wish i knew more bout the gun making. Wouldve help out then. So far my greatest achievement was unguided missile launcher:Dadmitedly, some fun.
So, there might be some guns that actually CAN help against bombers?
Long range BS AA guns aka Another bomber vs cap rant topic - ... kur nubėgo? - 06-01-2010
This is a game not reality. You can base something on reality, most likely the people roleplay actions, but rarely technic side of the game.
There should be no "good against everything ship" in the game. I know some pvp n00bs want to get blue messeges without putting any effort into it, but sorry, that's unfair deal.
Battleships already requires 3 bombers to kill a battleship. From 2 bombers he can easily get away not getting killed. That is already 3 players versus 1. The game should be fair, it's the main concept. Something which is more important than roleplay.
so No from me.
Bombers are already so much nerfed. If you take the ability to kill capital ships, which they should, whisch means bombers > capitals (not bombers = capitals) heck for what porpuse they serve then at all? Killing those few cruissers ?
Hell no. This is stupid.
Even more. If bombers will stop be sufficient versus battleships, only way to kill one will be or cruissers, which really needs quite a skill to use, so most people don't use them, or most likely what will happen another battleship. In the end we win even more battleships in the server, while fighter class ship will be pushed away somewhere...