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+--- Thread: The Liners........... (/showthread.php?tid=4213)
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The Liners........... - Gamazson - 10-15-2007
Sorry replacing the fuse on this old powder keg but I have to join the bandwagon of those who want the Gunship weaponry re-installed on the Liners. This was something that was brought up in the 'balance issues', but I am moving the general argument here to avoid cluttering that thread.
So a recap of what was said:
' Wrote:I'd like to request that we put the GB shield/gun mounts on the Liner ships. I mean, as I see it, the liners would have to be heavily armed, because one transports rich people who want to keep their money, and one transports people who will draw attackers like a moth to the flame. Considering they're as large as a Large and probably an Advanced Train, without the cargo capacity, they should have some firepower advantages, and there are already people who are very dependent on it, with excellent RP reasons. Look at Dab's Adamantine, and Nexus has an entire faction based around Prison Liners; both of these are invalidated if they lose their improvements. Increase their price or such, but please give back the guns.
Edit: THANK you, Drake!
' Wrote:They're actually significantly larger than a Large Train and probably the Adv. Train as well. They're bigger than many cruisers.
I agree with Eppy... While I know that this is to make things simpler (don't have to worry about the 'gunboat equipment makes it a gunboat?' questions), but ships this big are just sitting ducks without some decent armaments.
' Wrote:Prison liners could use a boost. They need GB turrets if they're going to be attacked all the time by pirates trying to get their buddies out. We all know transport turrets won't cut it for that. Of course, the Prison liner could also use a price boost if it gets GB turrets. 20 mil is pretty darn cheap. Don't get me wrong, it's the perfect price for how it is right now, because it's just and over sized, heavily armored transport with a small hold.
' Wrote:Dopamino,
most members here will kill me and burn my house if I'll return gunboat turrets to liners. We already had that, and I well remember what it caused.
Naturally you will all consider me biased but I would like to keep the GB load outs from 4.83 and put them in 4.84. The liners are massive ships. They are extremely long and have poor locations for their weapons. A liner cannot fend of a VHF with out its gunboat mounts, and even with a bomber is hard an actual gunship is darn near impossible. All you can do with a liner is pray that your enemy is dumb enough to fly through your forward firing arc because lord knows you cannot turn to face them unless they are a cruiser.
I understand why Igiss removed the GB mounts, to keep things simply when it come to classifying this ship. I know he dislikes Hybrid classes but the Liners shear dimensions and purpose (Hauling the rich and or most dangerous criminals) means these things require a higher level of fire power.
The Liners........... - Dab - 10-15-2007
I have to agree with this. The liners are perfectly balanced as they are. With their current cargo and firepower, they fit the role of a larger Armoured Transport. More cargo, larger size, and a little less in firepower.
Some called them overpowered, but they are perfectly balanced with other ships. They have the firepower to fight off most fighters, which they should for the reasons Nexus posted here. They have the firepower to fight off a GB long enough to flee, but not enough to kill most GBs. Nexus can testify to that, as I destroyed his, and another's Prison Liners a the same time with a RH GB.
In all the time I've flown the Adamantine (Luxury Liner) I've been able to successfully kill about three gunboats out of over twenty that have attacked me. Though I was able to fight well enough to run away without dieing (Barely.. Ask Tank, I got away from a Rogue GB and Taiiden bomber with no bots/batts and about 2 bars of hull left, and I was helped by a Rheinland Cruiser too.) in most cases.
And I've never been able to destroy more than one cruiser (destroyer-class) and that was mostly because of surprise and the fact that the enemy had no bots/batts of his own. I won through that one with only about 220 bots left, no batts and my hull half way down. The Kusari Destroyer's loadout wasn't finished yet either. I've fought about 4 cruisers in the Adamantine (they didn't pirate, I engaged first as per my in-game RP for that character) and that under-armed and under-defended Kusari Destroyer was the only one I've been able to beat. The only one I was ever able to take beyond half hull even.
Again; In this way the liners fit perfectly the role of the larger version of an Armoured transport which is a class of ship we really need. I use that liner to do the dangerous Omega-49 - New Tokyo route where I have to fly through UOG territory, and Tau-31 which is almost always littered with pirates and sometimes a place of Phantom raids. And also a possibility of SF interdiction due to the fact that I'm taking the Deuterium to Kusari, something the Bretonians don't want happening.
Then there is the cases that Nexus uses them for. Prison liners used to transport slaves (the actual commodity next version) and other contraband. The extra armor and firepower is necessary to fight your way away from the lawful forces that are bound to try taking you out.
Also, the liners are bigger than ANY cruiser in the game, save perhaps the Rheinland cruiser. Its shorter (in height) than most (except the Liberty Cruiser and Outcast one) and definitely longer than any of them. And its easily twice the size of the Large Train. With all that extra room, it should definitely have place for extra power to fuel gunboat-grade weaponry.
@Igiss; I'm not suggesting, nor do I think anyone else is, that you return ALL the turret mounts to GB turrets. We just want the liners in 4.84 to be the same as the ones in 4.83. Maybe a small cargo increase since the Adv. Train is coming in, but not anything else, and not a large increase. Example; 5 GB turrets and 6 Transport turrets for the Luxury Liner. Maybe 7-8 GB turrets for the prison liner, to reflect the fact that its more military-inclined and use to transport people that most pirates will attempt to rescue (or lawfuls, if the prison liner is used to transport slaves).
Personally, I think that increasing the cargo size and removing all GB turrets will make the liners unused. The only ones using it will be the ones that are between the stage of transport and train, and lack the money to move up to a better ship. All we would see is Container Transports (as they would now have more firepower than the Liners) and Adv. Trains.
The Liners........... - Drake - 10-15-2007
I'm firmly with Nexus and Dab on this. I flew a prison liner for awhile, but found it too big for my taste. And Dab is right... Without gunboat equipment, there will really be no point in flying a liner. Just a couple more unused ships with no redeeming qualities.
The Liners........... - Gamazson - 10-15-2007
To add to what was said can we not just add "Can be attacked/Pirated by cruisers" to the liners info cards? Yes this will dis-advantage those who have only level 7 gear on their Liner but honestly the fact that they will have class 8 equipment is a liners selling point.
The Liners........... - Fellow Hoodlum - 10-15-2007
Good call gentlemen, have to agree with that. Nexus, I like the info card addendum, will save all the fuss over
the transport/gunboat issues with pirating that bore me now. Armed as, so is a gunboat ...
Hopefully people who intend to use it will just arm it that way, and then there is no question. Pirate cruisers
may get a use finally.
Hoodlum
The Liners........... - Doom - 10-15-2007
i support liners being strong ships. Prison liner especially. They have valuable cargo and transport turrets simply can't protect it.
I see liners as vessels with 2000 cargo at maximum, with all turrets at lvl 8. To keep it balanced i would give them only half of power that GB has with much slower regen so that they cant fire constantly. But when they do, that their shots count.
Transport/GB rule depending what weapons they use is weird. They are Liners...so why we call them transports? There is no need to generalize them. Just allow cruisers to pirate Liners and we are done.
The Liners........... - Dopamino - 10-15-2007
Here's my views again (for those scared off by the long first post).
Prison liners could use a boost. They need GB turrets if they're going to be attacked all the time by pirates trying to get their buddies out. We all know transport turrets won't cut it for that. Of course, the Prison liner could also use a price boost if it gets GB turrets. 20 mil is pretty darn cheap. Don't get me wrong, it's the perfect price for how it is right now, because it's just an over sized, heavily armored transport with a small hold.
The Liners........... - Eppy - 10-15-2007
I think my views are fairly obvious, as I'm the one who brought it up again (Hobby, stop capitalizing on me!). Give us our guns and shields back, please? Jack up the price another ten million, if it makes it seem better.
The Liners........... - Dab - 10-15-2007
' Wrote:i support liners being strong ships. Prison liner especially. They have valuable cargo and transport turrets simply can't protect it.
I see liners as vessels with 2000 cargo at maximum, with all turrets at lvl 8. To keep it balanced i would give them only half of power that GB has with much slower regen so that they cant fire constantly. But when they do, that their shots count.
Transport/GB rule depending what weapons they use is weird. They are Liners...so why we call them transports? There is no need to generalize them. Just allow cruisers to pirate Liners and we are done.
The problem with all GB guns (we tried it this way before) was that with 11 GB turrets, that Liner can outfight half the cruisers in the mod.. Thats why for 4.83 it was reduced to 5 GB turrets and 6 Transport. That right there is a perfect balance. Lux Liner currently has 2200 cargo, which is also good. If cargo is upgraded and guns kept, I suggest not passing 2600 cargo. 2600 would be very good for it.
@Epy: Sorry, but its just too damn hard NOT to capitalize on you.:happy:
The Liners........... - Juan_Arquero - 10-15-2007
While I haven't played 4.84 yet, I've flown both the Luxury Liner and Prison Liner on other 4.83 servers. In fact, I purchased the Prison Liner I have now (on another server) in 4.82 before that server converted to 4.83. I agree that both liners need to have some GB turrets, as they do in 4.83. I think they would be too weak with only transport turrets. Also, I think 2600 cargo for the Luxury Liner and 2200 cargo for the Prison Liner is perfect.
Juan_Arquero